Martin Henley: [00:00:13] Hello there. My name is Martin Henley. This is the Effective Marketing content extravaganza. And if this is your first time here, you couldn’t possibly know that I am on a mission to give you everything you need to be successful in your business. Providing of course, what you need to be more successful in your business is to know more about and be implementing more efficiently, more enthusiastically and more effectively sales and marketing in your business, because that’s of course, what you need. Do you need more customers more profitably? So what goes on here is I’m here giving you everything I know about sales and marketing. That’s the What The series that happens on a Monday. On a Tuesday, I bring in anyone I can find with experience to share that will be useful to you if you are looking to grow your business. That’s talk marketing on a Tuesday. Every other Wednesday, Melanie Farmer comes through and we look at the marketing news and we speculate wildly about what that might mean for you in your marketing life and your business and your marketing career. On the other Wednesday, we review so you don’t have to. We’re looking at marketing tools, marketing books, marketing resources. I’m here thinking out loud on a Thursday and on a Friday we react to the very best and the very worst of content marketing content on the Internet. So if you’re tuning in on the day of release, it is Friday. So we are reacting today. So if that sounds like it might be interesting and useful, now would be the best time to like share, subscribe and comment, get involved because that will give us the motivation we need to continue on this epic, epic journey. So today is a Friday. So we are reacting and I am joined by the wonderful, wonderful, wonderful Andy Gwynn. Good morning, Andy Gwynn.

Andy Gwynn: [00:01:49] Morning, Martin. You’ve used the word enthusiastic and enthusiastic a lot, so it’s great to be here on on this Friday. Again, you guys, other side of the world ish. So thank you for inviting me again. It’s always great hooking up with you.

Martin Henley: [00:02:06] You are very welcome. Anyone who has experience of saying you and I react will know that this very often just becomes counselling for me, which I am deeply in need of. But we have today absolutely no idea of what we’re going to be reacting to. There is a jeopardy element to this. So what’s happened is Clay has put together the clay list, we call it. There are six items on the on the clay list. What we will do is we will go to random dot org. We will roll the dice that will give us a number between one and six. And then we will pick whichever number that correlates to on the clay list. How are you feeling about this?

Andy Gwynn: [00:02:44] I am cool. You and I get on well. What’s that proverbial saying that opinions are like something else. We’ve all got them.

Martin Henley: [00:02:51] They are like something else. Yes.

Andy Gwynn: [00:02:54] And we both had enough long yards and enough years to at least be able to come up with something. I’m sure I’m looking forward to it because I’m going to Scooby in English. That’s a clue, Scooby-Doo. I haven’t got a clue what’s coming up, so I’m looking forward to it.

Martin Henley: [00:03:09] It’s a lot of fun, isn’t it? That’s what I think. I think it’s a lot of fun and some people, Andy, some cynical people think that this is just a cheap way of getting more useful marketing content on the channel. That’s what some cynical people think. What do you think to that idea?

Andy Gwynn: [00:03:26] I think the world is full of cynical people and I think this meets my need for or my need for variety. Yeah, but you and I have got lots of experience and that’s not arrogance. I’ve been told that I wouldn’t have the clients I’ve still got and the clients telling me stuff and the clients wanting to work with me. I’ve been involved in marketing and sales in a professional, in a world class way for 20 years. I don’t think I was involved in sales for probably 2015 years before that, and it wasn’t at a world class level because I was learning. So there’s not a lot I don’t think that we probably haven’t seen or heard. And there’s a lot of mixed stuff out there and there’s a lot of people just missing my eyes, missing tricks and opportunities. I mean, damn, I listen to people’s opinions that I respect their experience that are good or all week long. So let’s shoot. And if the cynical people don’t get it, then life’s like a parachute, isn’t it? Or your mind works better when it’s open. Keep an open mind. I don’t know if you invest an hour of your time here. Put it on speed. One and a half, whatever you got to do. I say to people, I don’t care what you think about me, just people think about me or they have opinions about them. I care what you go away and do. So let’s see if there’s something you can take away from this and go and do differently.

Martin Henley: [00:04:42] Because, yes.

Andy Gwynn: [00:04:44] Opportunities are abundant. These people’s minds that are shut down 100% is.

Martin Henley: [00:04:49] And the thing is, I’m taking value out of this. I am consuming more. You know, I Who did I. Oh, Grant LaBeouf. I had a conversation with Grant LaBeouf and he said to me on the talk marketing, he said to me, The trouble is people aren’t students of the craft and that 100% is true. And since then I have become more of a student of the craft. You know, I am consuming willfully. Intentionally this content. I’m reading books. I am immersing myself in it again. And I think that’s all you need to do. You know, I say in the introduction, I’m giving you everything you need to know about sales and marketing. The number one thing you need to know is, well, the number one and the number two thing is the number one thing you need to know is you have to do it. If you want to have customers profitably, you have to be marketing. And the number two thing you need to know is that this is the best fund you will ever have in your business. You know, being successful, bringing people into your life and delivering the value that you are delivering, that’s how you get to have fun, I think, as an adult. So so that’s where we are. The only issue with this, of course, is that the cynics are right. This is just a cheap way of getting more content onto the channel.

Andy Gwynn: [00:05:54] You’re damn right, man. Are you not paying me for this? It’s the cheap. It’s the cheapest way I can imagine.

Martin Henley: [00:05:59] As cheap as it gets. No one’s getting paid. No one’s getting paid. Okay. Super cool. So shall we roll the dice and see what it is that we are going to be reacting to today? Now, somebody, while this happens, has to harm the Jeopardy theme. Do you know the Jeopardy theme now?

Andy Gwynn: [00:06:16] So I guess you’re going to have to do that.

Martin Henley: [00:06:18] It’s going to have to be me. Okay. So the Jeopardy theme goes. De de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de. Right. So we can stop there. The number is five. So I’m going to bring it back to us in case my browser cheats on me. I know we can go here, we can see here is the playlist. So we’re going to go to number five. We’re going to copy that. I’m going to put that into my browser. I think my browser isn’t going to betray me. You’ll know that I have been looking at the football. There’s no danger there. Okay, So what we are reacting to today, Mr. Gwynn, is how Apple and Nike have branded your brain? How do you feel about that?

Andy Gwynn: [00:07:12] I want to hear what they’ve got to say because I pronounce it Nike and you pronounce it Nike. So our brains have been branded differently already.

Martin Henley: [00:07:20] They have been branded ever so slightly differently. But I can’t stand Nike. I’ll be honest with you, they’re not my brand of choice at all. So this video has you won’t be able to see it. But behind here, I’ve got information about this video. This video has 2.4 million views. This channel, which is Big Think, has 558 million views, which all kind of bodes well. I think this is going to be interesting and useful. It’s only 5 minutes and 34 seconds long. So let’s go. If you want to say something, you just shout, okay, how do I feel about Apple? I feel great about Apple computers. I haven’t used an Apple phone since a client of mine told me that I was using a mum’s phone. So I stopped that in about 2014. And that’s how I feel about Apple. Nike isn’t my preferred brand. I tend to buy added as if I’m buying sports stuff. So that’s what I’m coming in. That’s my bias. Do you have a bias on this subject?

Andy Gwynn: [00:08:19] Oh yeah, I use Apple, but it took years for people around me to to get me to use it. And I’m anti brands in that I was bought up, I was packing gloves in a warehouse and then I got into purchasing in sales and it was all within industrial workwear and PPE protective equipment. And we used to bring for instance, I bought our own brand of safety footwear out of a factory in China from the same literally the same track that they were making Caterpillar. So I know the pricing and I struggle with branding because I’m fascinated by the way they market and the human mentality and the herd mentality. But you can buy stuff that’s equally as good. Now, I had people telling me, You’ve got to get a MacBook, you’ve got to get a MacBook. So when my laptop fell over, I went, okay, I’ll go. And it’s great. I’ve loved it and I’ve been on the iPhone since it started. And again, somebody just went, Hey, to come out, get it. I needed a new phone. I got it. But I’m just upgrading my iPhone from an iPhone six to a 14 and I bought it on the brand. I’ve bought it. I bought it from a mate of mine who’s changes it every year. He’s my tech monster. He’s great. And he said, I’ve got one a year old, you want it? Two thirds of the price.

Andy Gwynn: [00:09:32] And I went, yes. And it’s still I still thought twice I’m paying for a phone. Knowing that he’s not a phone is my business. It’s a computer. It it does everything. I still sort of struggle with the pricing of brands. Yes. But the reality, the reason I stayed with Apple phones is because that’s what I’m used to. I just can’t be asked with changing and trying to get used to something new. So maybe that’s part of their marketing is as well. And that makes sense, doesn’t it? So have they got a loyal fan? They’ve got a loyal fan because I can’t be asked to change. But so I love Apple. I love the stuff, I love the story, and I love Steve Jobs’s story. When it comes to Nike, I don’t buy branded sportswear. I’ll buy something that is functional looks, looks the way I want it. And because I just know that you’re paying for the brand. Yes. I think with trainers, it’s sportswear is my perception. Golfers might say the golf clubs are better. Certainly Apple uses might say they’re better than others. I don’t know. But when it comes to Adidas trainers or sportswear, I won’t. I’ve never bought branded, not since I was a kid.

Martin Henley: [00:10:40] All right, cool. Well, let’s see then. So this might not be the best video for us because they. I don’t think they branded Android.

Andy Gwynn: [00:10:46] Hey, doesn’t matter about the product, does it? We’re talking about marketing and what they are masters at is marketing. So let’s go and see what they’re doing 100%.

Martin Henley: [00:10:55] Let’s go and see what they are up to. Okay, good. So let’s press play.

Narrator: [00:11:00] Coke is just soda, Tylenol, just acetaminophen and Levi’s are just jeans. Yet consumers go out of their way to select these specific brands over others.

Americus Reed II: [00:11:11] An economist would say, how is this possible that a rational consumer would be willing to pay more for exactly the same thing? We love to think about ourselves as rational. That’s not how it works. A very famous study done by colleagues at Duke University at flashed either the Apple logo or the IBM logo to two randomized groups of participants.

Narrator: [00:11:37] The study found that after being subliminally exposed to the Apple logo compared to when you’ve been exposed to the IBM logo, participants performed better on creative tasks.

Americus Reed II: [00:11:48] And the argument.

Martin Henley: [00:11:53] Serious? I didn’t know that. I didn’t know looking at a logo could make you more creative.

Andy Gwynn: [00:12:01] You’ve now got me. Yeah, I get it. I’m passionate about psychology, and I get it. And I’m trying to remember. I’ll see if I can remember it throughout. Throughout this. Something about if you give somebody a warm coffee in a lift as you’re going up that into an interview into something, they’re more likely to say yes or you get better rapport. It’s that subtle. I’ve studied a lot with some of the top guys in the world, and I get it. Okay. And guess what we think about Apple. They’re creative, aren’t they? They’re bringing out new innovation. They innovated the bloody the whole stuff, the iPhone, the iPod, the music. They’re so I couldn’t tell you what IBM made. So maybe. Maybe I’m typical of that. Okay.

Martin Henley: [00:12:46] All right, cool. That seems to be a bit of a stretch for me. Like you perform more creatively by looking at a logo. Okay, let’s push on.

Americus Reed II: [00:12:54] Cynic.

Americus Reed II: [00:12:56] Is that Apple has been telling you this story over and over again, that Apple is the brand for hip, cool, fun, creative people.

Narrator: [00:13:08] This is the true power of brands. They can influence our behavior in ways that extend way beyond the point of sale. So to what degree can the influence of brands wreak havoc on our ability to make rational spending decisions? This is your brain on money. This is Americus Reed. He studies identity and marketing at the University of Pennsylvania.

Americus Reed II: [00:13:32] When I make choices about different brands, I’m choosing to create an identity. When I put that shirt on, when I put those shoes on, those jeans, that hat, someone is going to form an impression about what I’m about. So if I’m choosing Nike over Under Armour, I’m choosing a kind of different way to express affiliation with sport. The Nike thing is about performance. The Under Armour thing is about the underdog. I have to choose which of these different conceptual pathways is most consistent with where I am in my life.

Narrator: [00:14:07] And once a consumer makes that choice, their relationship with a brand can deep into the point where they identify with the brand like family. And once you identify with a brand, it can shape the way you behave.

Americus Reed II: [00:14:20] And it’s really interesting because they will also, if someone talks bad about that product, brand or service, they will be the first to go out and defend. Why? Because an attack on the brand is an attack on themselves.

Martin Henley: [00:14:35] Right. So I thought the point was the point was of brand is that we’re not choosing. I thought the point of brand is that. You know, the subliminal thing kicks in. So when I teach Brand as part of digital marketing, I don’t teach Brandt especially, but as part of digital marketing, this is what I say to people is I say it’s really about putting yourself front of mind. So if I come to buy something that you sell, then I don’t go searching for you. You’re at the front of mind and this is and I tell them about my relationship with Adidas, where I’m not a particularly an added ass fan consciously, but when I go to a sports shop to buy stuff, I typically leave with Adidas stuff. So when I go to play tennis, I am I look like I’m an Adidas sponsored athlete. I don’t look like that when I’m playing tennis. But when I’m walking to tennis, you might believe that I’m an Adidas sponsored athlete. So I thought the point of this was not to that people consciously decide. The point is that the strength of the brand is such that you you’ve already made you maybe you’ve made that decision and now you’re committed to that decision. What do you think?

Andy Gwynn: [00:15:48] Oh, I think this is complex because if people have been listening to this from the beginning and I said, I don’t buy brands, that’s bullshit. You can challenge me because this has got me thinking. And actually the audience on this aren’t going to be the Adidas global brand marketeers. They’re going to be business owner marketeers. And that’s who we’re talking to. That’s who we are. And so it’s about thinking, how do you apply this? You’ve got to get in front of people that it said, because how it’s influencing people’s thoughts. But I ride Triumph’s. I’m a motorcyclist, I’m a biker, I ride Triumph’s. And I’ve often thought of getting a Harley. I’ve got people around me that ride Harleys. And when it said, You defend the brand, you’re damn right I do. Why do I buy it? For me, I want to be different. And you don’t see as many triumphs as other brands, Japanese brands in the UK. I’m in Spain. You certainly don’t see many compared to the BMW and the Harleys. So I like to be different. So try. And is it different? It is by the fact that it’s not a common. But I also go, I’m a patriot. I had a Jaguar and I jokingly say I got rid of it when it was bought by the Indians. It’s not true. I got rid of it anyway, but I wouldn’t necessarily go out and buy another one because I say I’m a patriot. There’s those two identities. He mentioned identity for me. So I do buy brands. And I think the thing for this is a business owner.

Andy Gwynn: [00:17:01] You’ve got to go. Yes, I’ve got to get my brand out there so people see it because they’ve got to buy it to begin with. But what they’re talking about is what is the identity, the emotion or reason that people buy it, because those are the people to understand and get to. That’s the message to get out there is to hit them with the emotion. Then what this is saying is the impact you have on those people in the rest of their behaviour is staggering. Yes. Can you do that as a micro-business, as a small business? Am I am I influencing my client’s thoughts elsewhere outside of delivering on their LinkedIn marketing for them? I don’t know. But I said at the beginning of this, keep an open mind Cynics, What can you get from this apply? I’m now thinking, how else can I get my brand out? And actually, how can I even more focus on communicating the emotion out there for people to tap into the emotion and their identity? And how can I understand that Avatar better? And we talk about hitting people with their pain and their problems and then giving them the solution. Most people that haven’t studied the craft that you’ve said people don’t understand about communicating to get that emotion and tap into that emotion. That’s what these guys are saying. It’s an identity level. What’s what’s lower than that? There isn’t that I’m beliefs and values, identity. Damn, they’ve got right to the bottom. No wonder they’re changing human beings. Thoughts?

Martin Henley: [00:18:24] Yes. Okay. So I spoke to Barnaby twice on the talk marketing thing. He defines brand as the relationship that a business has with its customers or a customer has with a particular supplier. And I think this is true. I mean, I would defend Apple computers, I would defend Google phones, you know. So it is right. I mean, and what you’re what you are the benefit of the brand is all of these things is the front of mind. When they come to buy something, they’re thinking about what you provide rather than what might be available in the market. It’s about the relationship. It’s about the strength of the relationship. It’s about having advocates out there in the world. And here’s what I really think is we have brand relationships. You know, I do this in my does my business look big in this presentation, which is about brand, which is, you know, I I’m a football fan and I particularly enjoy Manchester United branded football. You know, if I’m buying shirts, I’ll typically go to Marks Spencer’s. If I’m buying no pants and socks, Marks and Spencers shirts might be next. For example, if I buy a barbecue, it will be a Weber barbecue. I typically own a pair of Ray-Ban sunglasses. I’m a photographer. I shoot with Sony. I used to be passionate about Nikon that moved on. I don’t drive a car currently, but if I did it would be an Alfa Romeo. You know, we have these brand relationships. We absolutely do. And what they’re saying here, which is maybe a little bit different from what I say to people, is we are defined by those brands. You know, those choices like people will look at us and they will say, okay, they use this brand or that brand. They might be this kind of person, which is where I suppose it ties into what you’re talking about, which is identity, and I suppose our self identity. I winced because people are talking about identity politics and stuff, but really our self identity is probably the most basic thing. That’s where we come from with everything we do. That’s our core motivation. You know.

Andy Gwynn: [00:20:27] I’m excited by just listening to this because we didn’t know what was going to come out. I teach a lot around helping people change their behavior, and I tell you, you can change your skills, you can do something different. But often what stops us adopting the skills is our beliefs. You know, if I think if I believe I’m not a salesman, I won’t adopt the ability to write and use a script, for example. But underneath. Our beliefs are our values. Belief is something we hold to be true. Value is something we hold to be important. So a value might be. I’ve got a value of working hard. But the belief then was you’ve got to do stupid hours. When I shifted the belief to working smart, but also if a value is time with my kids. But also a value of working hard. There’s a conflict. Your identity dictates your values. Moment someone gets a has a child born, their identity changes to want a dad rather than husband or boozy mate. And the values change, beliefs change. These guys are talking about the the identity and what that’s got me thinking. Flip it around as to not what they’re doing to us, but what we can then do. What we can do in our marketing is how can we better understand the identities of our ideal clients? Because you’ve talked about all those brands. I like to be different. That’s part of my identity. I like to sort of stand out. No, no, no shit. So I don’t buy the branded stuff you’ve got, but I do buy some sort of quirky clothes. I’ll look at something and go, Is it different? So if somebody was targeting me with Triumph and they were talking about being different, being the leader of the pack, not that I need to be the leader, but just that difference. You got me. But if you’re talking to me about sportswear, sort of doesn’t get me. I’m trying to think of some other analogies. I guess what I’m.

Martin Henley: [00:22:08] Saying, The one is Apple, isn’t it? The huge think different campaign. That must be the original thing, different campaign.

Andy Gwynn: [00:22:17] Yeah, I think I think for me, what I’ve just got from this and what people listening, I’d urge you to get from these. I need to sit down and think even more about not just the avatar of the ideal client of the demographic and what they are, but what’s their identity, what those things are. They’re wanting to look cool or wanting to be faster or wanting to be different or wanting to, whatever it might be. I it’s mind blowing. And I know they’re brands. I know people buy brands. I don’t stop to think why they buy the brands, because one of the things we can talk about another day is how I hate being patronised in global adverts on the TV, but I don’t get that. I hate that. But these guys, they’re talking about whether they’ve done it intentionally and of course they must as they’ve learned. But the impact it’s having on people’s actions outside of just buying the computer and wearing the shirt 100%. And I ain’t going to do that in my I, I’m going to do that in my business because my business isn’t a global brand, but I’m thinking about how do I apply that at whatever level can work better for me.

Martin Henley: [00:23:23] Yeah, 100%. And I think the way the application of this has because if Nike or Apple are watching this to learn about brands, then they’re in big trouble already. But the application it has for the people who are watching this, who might be running their small business or who might be in a marketing role, is to invest in brands at the very first opportunity. And that really is in the first instance about coming up with some imagery and some colours and some fonts and some messages and maybe a story, because the earlier you invest in that, like the stronger the brand is. So for me I think about and I am thinking currently because I’m putting some content together for a course, I’m thinking about brand personal brand and the brand is actually a proportion of the value that you deliver. You know, people, the way I feel about myself and the way I present myself is, is through the brands like this guy saying so that is a proportion of the value. So people get caught up in the pounds and pence. This is what this is worth, but they don’t take into account the things that you’re talking about, the emotional value that comes along with being part of this particular tribe.

Andy Gwynn: [00:24:31] I’m I’m thinking about how do I apply this in my little world of delivering LinkedIn delivery to my clients? Because it isn’t. Have I got a brand? But what he’s got me thinking about, if I use the motorcycle analogy again, is it is it triumph first or is it style of bike first? Because there’s so many different styles. I wasn’t going to buy a sports bike. I bought an adventure buy because someone else had got one. I thought it’s different. Before that I had cruises, so get me on the product first and then I’m going to choose the brand, maybe. So people buy. People buy my service because it is. Can you be you can’t be relatively unique. It’s up there in the few that I haven’t met anyone else that pulls together everything we pull together. So I’m going to say I’m unique. I’m sure there’s probably one or two out there, but that’s where I’m at. People are buying my product or service first. Now, if they could get that anywhere else, are they going to stay then? Because they’ve got my style is the brand of style. Yeah. So I’m going, okay, how can I get my product no more? And wrapping that around the style and communicating that it is unique in what it does. So I think there’s the product or service. Does that come before the brand or, you know.

Martin Henley: [00:25:48] That has to come before the brand. You have to you have to be taking some value. You have to be a customer. And this is what I argued with Barnaby about, is, is like, I don’t care about anyone else, I only care about the customers, it’s about the relationship. But the truth is you have to buy in to get the relationship. So I was saying to Barnaby, what about Ferrari? Part of Ferrari’s brand is that it’s stupidly exclusive and every little boy wants one is I don’t care if they haven’t got the money to buy one, I don’t care, you know. So maybe he wasn’t as blasé as that, but that was his argument is it’s about the relationship buy in. Welcome to the club and then once you’re in the club, like you say, they paint us in so we can’t go somewhere else. That’s. And to answer your question, if somebody else was offering the same services, would they leave? And the answer to that question is, if you have got brand, if you have got that relationship, then they are much less likely to leave. And if you have got strong brand and you’ve got strong relationship, then they’re really much less likely to leave. So this is about Barnaby, right? This is about that relationship, you know.

Andy Gwynn: [00:26:51] And I think the distinction I’ve got from you just is I’ve always struggled with people that go, I need brand. And someone said to me, I’m setting up a new business, I need some branding, some logos, some headers, some in the old days it used to be complement slips and I’m saying, No, not really. Go out there and talk to people about how you can help them first get the sale and then you can develop it. But actually if I swap the word brand with the word relationship. Then that’s got me thinking the Ferrari thing. Now. For me, it’s not exclusive. They are damn beautiful and sexy. And is there anything else out there?

Martin Henley: [00:27:20] That’s what I would say, is that’s the exclusive part of it, that it’s kind of available to you. This is the part of the draw, and people who buy them know it’s not available to most of us. And that’s part of the the brand, the relationship.

Andy Gwynn: [00:27:33] The story is the thing. Again, if we’re talking about this brand’s tap into different people’s needs and identities, don’t they? I don’t care about the exclusivity. I’ll go buy a used one. I don’t I don’t have the ego to or the need to buy a new one. But yeah, I know people have gone. I’ve bought that. Why? Well, there’s a two year waiting list. I’m on the list. Whatever. Like she can go. And we know people when we talk visual, auditory, kinesthetic, they have different ways of what’s important to them. A bike or a car has got to look good for me first. Then he’s got to feel good when I drive it. Then he’s got to sound good. He’s got to tap all those three. If it’s my ideal, that’s why I buy Triumph sets their triples. They sound beautiful. As well as being comfortable and looking good. I think you’ve got to understand.

Martin Henley: [00:28:13] Though, are you now backfilling the reasons? Like the reason I buy a triumph is because of these reasons. Or is it actually I’m so committed to triumph that I’m now looking for more reasons to be engaged. I think that happens as well, even if it’s not happening for you.

Andy Gwynn: [00:28:27] If we if we’re back to the product. First of all, was I going to buy a race bike or a tour or whatever? Then then the brand? I look to the brand first, but I’ve looked at other brands and then when I’ve decided on which one. Yeah, the brand. The brand and the product takes preference, that’s first. Then when I’m choosing the actual product, it’s got to meet those, those needs as well as others. I think it all comes back. You’re right. Instead of the word brand for a small business, I would be talking about the relationship because I’ve said Ferrari. Can you get him anywhere else? Is there anything else like it? Is there anything else like a Ducati? Try and stun the odd thing. Carlos and one or two others have it sort of close with the odd style. And where is I going with it? I think what you’ve got to do is you’ve got to have a product or service that’s exceptional and then you go out and get the sale. Then you build the relationship because like you say, would you go anywhere else? Well, I haven’t got time for what’s the biggest thing with Harley? They make more money out of their branded clothing and their clubs and the you’ve got motorcycle clubs. You are not allowed to join unless you have a Harley. Nothing to do with Harley. That’s just the way they are, so bought into it. So you’ve got to have a great product or service. Then you build the relationship with the wow factor so that they don’t want to go anywhere else if they come across something similar.

Martin Henley: [00:29:45] Okay. And then I think the other thing, which is where small businesses should start as early as possible, is inconsistency. Is is not inconsistency is they should start with consistency. Like, like fonts, colors, look, images, delivery, all of those things, because that’s where trust comes from is where you look the same. And what was the other thing that I wanted to say about that? And then you start building the story and then you build the relationships and then you really understand your actual customers, not on the basis of the way they feel about your product, but on the basis that they’ve bought, that they’ve invested in your product. We’re only halfway through, bro. Should we press the button again?

Andy Gwynn: [00:30:26] Yeah, yeah.

Martin Henley: [00:30:30] All right, here we go. We get a neuroscientists now, Michael Platt.

Narrator: [00:30:33] Michael Platt is a professor of neuroscience, marketing and psychology whose research demonstrates how our perception of brands influences our decisions.

Michael Platt: [00:30:42] There is an idea in marketing, which is that we relate to brands in the same way we relate to people. It’s like, I love this brand or I hate this brand. Of course, what people say right can often be different from what’s really going on in their heads. So we thought, Well, why don’t we just ask the brain directly?

Narrator: [00:31:03] Michael and his team observed the brains of iPhone users and Samsung Galaxy users with an MRI machine while they heard good, bad and neutral news about Apple and Samsung.

Michael Platt: [00:31:14] Apple customers showed a brain empathy response toward Apple. That was exactly what you’d see in the way you would respond to somebody in your own family.

Narrator: [00:31:23] Strangely, Samsung users didn’t have any positive or negative responses when good or bad news was released about their brand. The only evidence that Samsung users showed was reverse empathy for Apple News, meaning if the Apple headline was negative, their brain reflected a positive response.

Michael Platt: [00:31:39] You know, it really shows us that Apple has completely defined the market here. Samsung customers, it seems from their brain data, are only buying Samsung because they hate Apple.

Narrator: [00:31:50] The kicker, the Samsung users didn’t report feeling the results that MRIs showed what was happening in their brains and what they reported feeling towards Apple and Samsung were totally different.

Americus Reed II: [00:32:01] Most people just don’t realize that they are subconsciously choosing brands because those brands have some kind of self expressive value. You can see there’s a lot of power here in terms of shaping consumer’s decisions. As we learn more and more about that, we have to think much more deeply about the ethical, legal and societal implications of doing that.

Narrator: [00:32:25] So as consumers, what can we do to make informed choices?

Martin Henley: [00:32:28] Right. So I just want to say, I don’t believe that Samsung Samsung customers are buying Samsung just because they hate Apple, that it doesn’t make any sense. And also, I think this is slightly shoddy science because I don’t want to you know, you have to have a you have to have the median group. So don’t tell me it’s just like them, like the way they would respond if there was good or bad news about their family. Say, we did the test, we tested them for good or bad news about their family, good or bad news about the brand good or bad news about the competitor. You know, I mean, that would be more scientific. So that’s what’s occurring to me right now. I’m a little bit I’m a little bit down on science.

Andy Gwynn: [00:33:15] And when you and I suppose it’s the way I say if I quote stats, I say to people on webinars, I’m more interested. I’m more interested in the principle of what you’re going to take away. And I didn’t get from him that he said all Samsung users are buying Samsung because they don’t like Apple. But the principle of what he showed that and I don’t know the size of the study, but the principle makes sense to me because I’m looking at Apple going, I know their story. I know Steve Jobs’s story. It’s powerful. I don’t even know who owns Galaxy Samsung. I don’t even know anything about them. I’m presuming they’re Eastern. I don’t even know whether they’re Japanese or Taiwanese or I don’t know anything. I don’t know anything about them. And so I get what they’re saying. But for me, they’re right about the ethical thing. But I’m flipping that round going, small business owner, How can I use that to sell more service? Because I absolutely believe my service helps people. I get the ethics of that size. I’ve got a great example in the village. I live in a little Spanish village, as, you know, up the mountains. It’s only a decade out of dictatorship. We’ve got it. We’ve got a very agricultural.

Andy Gwynn: [00:34:28] A lot of people stay in the village. Born and bred in the village. A girl of 18 just showed me a new iPhone, iPhone 14. I said I have the same. She said, Yeah, I paid 1200 euros for it. I happened to pay 800 quid. I bought it off my mate. It was a year old. I’m running a business. I can afford that. It goes through the business. I can afford 800 quid. And I’m looking at her going, How the hell do you get indoctrinated to spend 1200 euros? That’s a month’s salary for some of these guys in the village on a fricking phone that you ain’t going to use anywhere extensively, as I use. And I don’t use my iPhone as extensively as you could that I struggle with. Now, can I use can I use this information in this data and this principle to influence how? Again, the overriding thing for me is how can I take this and apply it into my business at my smaller level, small level, to to make more sales. So I get it. I mean, all right. He didn’t state it in the way you wanted it, but he’s a neuroscientist. It was with an MRI scan. I find that stuff fascinating and believable.

Martin Henley: [00:35:32] Okay, cool.

Andy Gwynn: [00:35:33] And that’s the tell you what it also got me thinking was turning me off brands even more. I’ve mentioned Triumphs and Apple. I said at the beginning, I don’t really do brands. The only reason I’m still with iPhones is I just can’t be asked to change. And we’ve got the laptops to suit. And Mary, my partner’s got a metal sink. It’s easy now that’s back to get your client in and then, wow, to tie them in. There’s the overriding message for me 100%.

Martin Henley: [00:36:00] And what did I want to say then? I wanted to say, I don’t know if you’ve spent much time watching other content. This is channel is entirely about it’s us versus the corporations, you know, because there’s ethics, obviously, in taking money from people who don’t have it necessarily to buy the products. But there’s also ethics, I think more serious ethics. The most serious ethics in the fact that these things fall apart every two years and then they rely on materials which are mined by children in Africa. You know, there’s layers to the ethics that aren’t quite right. But definitely, if you are going turning against brands, you’re coming to the light side, brother. Let’s march on. They’re now going to tell us they’re going to show 1984 type footage to get us really scared.

Narrator: [00:36:46] Well, the best thing we can do is be aware of the influence that brands hold.

Americus Reed II: [00:36:51] I think it’s important to always pause and think a little bit about why am I buying this product?

Narrator: [00:36:59] And like it or not, brands aren’t going anywhere.

Americus Reed II: [00:37:02] I’ve heard lots of people push back and say that I’m not into brands. I take a very different view. They’re not doing anything any different than what someone who affiliates with the brand is doing. They have a brand. It’s just an anti-brand brand. I think about what is it that I’ve learned about identity over time? I think a lot of it has to do with the fundamental need that we as humans have to have support systems. Perhaps it was the church, it was the community, it was these other institutions that existed. Now brands have stepped in as pillars of our identity. So I’m very much motivated to see that in that positive light.

Martin Henley: [00:37:50] Okay, good. That guy’s annoyed me now.

Andy Gwynn: [00:37:54] I just like scientists. You know me. You and I are different. I have to keep bringing it back to whatever it’s. I find it scary. Yes. And he said he said he liked that brands have stepped in instead of other communities. I don’t.

Martin Henley: [00:38:08] Know. I don’t either. I really don’t.

Andy Gwynn: [00:38:11] There’s no there’s no rules of that community like you’ve got in a church or a bike club or whatever, whether you like the rules or not, they have rules. There’s no rules with the identity. If you suddenly all get together as trying owners or Nike wearers. So that’s a bit scary. But then I just have to bring it back to how can I what can I take from this that I can apply to my business, my clients businesses? Yes. And we can recreate that before the end of this call. I think for me, there’s been two or three key things and we can come on to that. It’s just scary. And he’s right. It’s going nowhere. And it’s got me thinking. I’m sat looking at, you know, I smoke, I smoke and believe and I’m going, what is that, a brand? Well, of course it is. Why am I on it? And he just said, stop and think. And I think if we’re talking outside our own businesses and marketing and certainly for kids and teenagers and a lot of adults are just the same because they’ve grown up like it, it stuns me the amount of bling, the amount of brand people wear and buy. Stop and think before you buy it. Why do I buy the unbelief tobacco? Well, because that’s what I’ve got used to, you know, that’s what I started with. And I started smoking again. So it’s not about brand identity. Used to be when I had a Zippo, but I’ve refrained from buying another Zippo. So for me, number one is stop and think.

Andy Gwynn: [00:39:26] And then also I think the overriding thing for me was how can I get my clients in? First of all, the great thing we’ve got in this era is as a small business, you can get your brand out there. I’ve had people say, I’ve seen you, and I said, where they recognise my logo or the name didn’t mean anything to them other than they recognised it and associated it well. It meant something they associated with what I did, but you can get it out there so much more now than you could 15 years ago. So get your name out, whatever the name is, and get the sale and keep them in. So they become they become loyal. But I think for me it’s come back to the brands you’ve talked about. You’ve got to have an exceptional product or service. You know, we’re talking about these guys. I can challenge that around the clothing, but that’s just my perception. People aware of it. Mike But we’ve talked about the Apple and the Nike, the Ferrari and those people. So I think it’s I think that’s fascinating and scary and I’m not going to get upset over it. I’ve got to bring it back to it is what it is. What are the two or three things I can apply in my business? And one is to think about what’s the identities of your ideal client. Yes, because I’m there’s different ones and thinking about their identity rather than just their demographic 100%.

Martin Henley: [00:40:43] And I think the takeaway for me is there’s two things If it is us versus the corporations, which it is, they’ll leveraging brand. So the sooner you start leveraging brand, the more able you are going to be to compete. So that’s the first thing. And then the second thing is, so this comes back to Ben. I don’t know if you are Ben, but Ben said, Look, we’ve got to wake up and just realize that if it is us versus the corporations, let’s stop giving them our money. You know, maybe we should start there. So it’s all right. You’ve got to war with the corporation all day, every day in your business. And then at the weekend you’re giving corporations your money. So we’ve got to start thinking locally, shopping locally, supporting each other. That’s kind of the thing that we have to do, which I think counters what they’re saying about us becoming slaves to brand. What we do now is we have a very quick look because we’ve been on this ages already at what’s going on in the comments. So Rocks says brands have stepped in as a pillar of our identity, summed it up perfectly and that is, I think, scary. I don’t think it’s a pillar of my identity, but I can see how maybe for young people it might be is difficult to find happiness with oneself, but it is impossible to find it anywhere else. Okay, that’s a bit deep from Dr. Proust. Is that what we expect? What a very enlightening video. I think. Not so much enlightening as whatever the word is for reminding. You know, this is what’s going on in the world. We don’t think about it enough. This is why we’re here consuming this content, because we need a reminder. As companies get smarter and ways of selling and marketing, it is a must for consumers to get smarter about their purchase decisions too.

Andy Gwynn: [00:42:19] I, I think she I think companies, big companies have got smarter. They’re not they don’t need to get much smarter. There’s not a lot they don’t understand. I think as consumers, yeah, we’ve got to get smarter. But as small business owners and I don’t mean midget as the SME business owner, we have to get smarter in ways of selling and marketing because we don’t we have not studied and don’t understand the craft as much as the corporates do. Yeah, and. You want to laugh? Could you hear that noise? Or is my software crisp drowning outside noise?

Martin Henley: [00:42:54] No. I heard that somebody just collapsed into the side of your house.

Andy Gwynn: [00:42:59] No, into another car. I’m sat outside a car park by the cemetery and the chapel of rest. It’s normally very peaceful. And the two roads, roads come together and they have just two cars have just collided. Viva Espana. It doesn’t look like they’ve stopped. If you can still hear that, I can close the door if it gets too noisy.

Martin Henley: [00:43:18] No, we’re good. We’re good. It’s not that much of a distraction. Okay. So Richard Cell says it appears to me a lot of comments here are misunderstanding the concept of this video. It is not about brainwashing people. It is about anthropomorphism of an intangible object such as brand. Therefore, people connect with it as if it were human. Humans do this all the time with inanimate objects and animals. It appears to me the statement of this video is that when people connect to something on an emotional level, it becomes a part of their identity, therefore creating loyalty. This can be employed to anything, not just brands. And I would argue by anyone, just not these international corporations. That’s what I would ask.

Andy Gwynn: [00:43:59] I think I think he’s right that that’s that was the overarching message for me is, yes, I need to focus more. We hear about. Communicate to people about their problem. Tap into their pain and give them the solution. It’s all emotion. And we know people make decisions on emotion. I don’t sit down enough and think about what am I saying in my messages or my engagement or my content. To tap into that, I need to do more of it. And that’s what it’s saying. When people buy at an emotional level that they’re more loyal.

Martin Henley: [00:44:30] Yeah, Yeah. So you’re talking about the psychographics, you’re talking about the fears, frustrations, needs and wants. And I think that is where you need to get to. Probably the entry point is the demographic. But once you’ve nailed that, then you move to the next level, which is those things, and then maybe the next level beneath that is their identity. How do they perceive themselves and how do they want to present themselves? Okay, good. So feels. Was it your car they crashed into?

Andy Gwynn: [00:44:56] No, but I’ve got a feeling it’s it’s an expat pensioner lady that I know, but.

Martin Henley: [00:45:04] Okay, good.

Andy Gwynn: [00:45:05] Shut the door. I hope you haven’t seen that. But let’s get to it, because I’m sure the audience don’t want to get distracted by me waffling on about something that’s never happened before in my village.

Martin Henley: [00:45:16] Okay, good. So the good news is we got to the end. How do you feel about that, Mr. Gwyn?

Andy Gwynn: [00:45:20] This is great news, is I need to ask them what brand of cars they’re going to buy to replace the ones they’ve just totaled.

Martin Henley: [00:45:28] That is the first question you need to ask them. It doesn’t matter how they are. It doesn’t matter if they’re injured. Doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. No. What matters is what brand. That’s the most important thing. Okay, super cool. So if anyone still watching and they found that interesting or useful, now would be the second best time to like share, comment, subscribe, get involved because that is the motivation we need to continue on this epic journey. We don’t need much in the way of motivation. We’re pretty motivated, aren’t we? Mr. GREENE? You’re motivation. That’s right. That was going out in the street.

Andy Gwynn: [00:45:57] No, I’m just. You know what? Make my apologies. I should have shut the door. I’m all about I’m all about talking to people, about being in the moment and focus. And there’s another message for when you marketing and I haven’t done it, so definitely do it on the next call. Now, for me, I mean, I want people I said at the beginning, don’t care what you think about me. I care about what you go away and do from this. And I know you’re the same, but actually you spun my mind as to what I always say I love. I love this business. I love my business. I love what you’re doing. Because when I work with clients, I say I’m getting great stuff from it as well. You know, I would never have seen that video. And if I’d have watched it, would I really have thought about it? This forced me to sit down and think about the things we’ve talked about. So it’s been a pleasure. I hope those guys listening, girls listening into this take away the same stuff. It’d be great to see and hear their comments.

Martin Henley: [00:46:42] Yes, or whatever they take away as long as it leads to some action, as long as it leads to them make an investment that makes their lives better. That’s what I’m interested in. So welcome to the club, man. This is what goes on here. It’s been a while since we’ve had you, but this is the mission just to consume something that we otherwise would not have consumed and think about things that we would otherwise not have thought about all with a view just to being a little bit more successful in our business, if that’s what we are looking to do. Thank you so much for being here, man.

Andy Gwynn: [00:47:09] You’re welcome. Cheers.

Martin Henley: [00:47:15] Thank you for taking the time to check out this episode of Reaction Time. If you found this interesting and useful, then YouTube thinks you are also going to enjoy this. And this is the latest thing that we’ve produced. If you haven’t yet and you could take a second to like share, subscribe and comment, then that would do us a whole load of good and it will give us the motivation to continue on this epic, epic journey.

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