If you believe in your business, increase your advertising - Talk Marketing 078 - Steven Hyde

If you believe in your business, increase your advertising – Talk Marketing 078 – Steven Hyde

by | Nov 1, 2022 | Digital Marketing, Digital Marketing Career, Digital Marketing Skills, PPC Advertising, Talk Marketing

Click through to the good bits.

00:00 Introductions.

12:16 How are you qualified to talk about digital advertising?

34:35 How paid digital advertising is evolving?

45:19 Who do you work with and how do you add value to their lives?

1:13:08 What is your recommendation to get better at digital advertising?

1:15:21 What should people read?

1:20:41 Who do you think might endure or maybe even enjoy to have a conversation like this with me?

Martin Henley: [00:00:16] Hello there my name is Martin Henley. This is the Effective Marketing content extravaganza. And if you’re new here, you might not know that I’m on a mission to give you everything you need to be successful in your business, providing of course, that what you need to be successful in your business is to know more about and be motivated to implement effective marketing, which is, of course, what you need if you’re going to be successful in your business. So what we do here is we bring you the marketing news every other week. We review the very best and the very worst of marketing content on the Internet. And whenever I can quite regularly, I bring in a guest with experience that would be relevant to you if you want to be more successful in your business through effective marketing. And that is what today is about. [00:01:01][44.8]

Martin Henley: [00:01:01] Today’s guest is a business graduate who has been managing marketing and sales teams since 1991. That’s just a little bit over 30 years. In those 30 years, he has been National Account Manager for PepsiCo, General Sales Manager at United Biscuits UK and UK Sales Manager for Walt Disney. Mainly what he’s been doing is running his business, Push, which is a digital performance marketing agency that he co-founded all the way back in 2007. They run campaigns on Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon and TikTok and are the only agency to have won awards from Microsoft and Google for six years running. What you might not know about him is that he is married to Saira Khan, who you might know from The Apprentice and Loose Women Off the telly. Good afternoon, Steven Hyde. [00:01:53][51.6]

Steven Hyde: [00:01:54] Hello. Thanks for the introduction. [00:01:56][1.2]

Martin Henley: [00:01:57] You are very welcome. That’s, that’s becoming my favourite bit of it. I really like doing that like research and finding out interesting things about people. Are you there? [00:02:08][11.4]

Steven Hyde: [00:02:09] Yeah, I’m still here. [00:02:10][0.6]

Martin Henley: [00:02:11] You’re still there? Yes, I really like that. But how is it being married to a TV personality? [00:02:14][3.5]

Steven Hyde: [00:02:17] It’s had some it’s had some there’s been some fun games over the years. So when it first happened, she got when she was on The Apprentice very first series. Oh, 15, 16 years ago, she got kind of whipped in, whipped up into lots of premiere events and star studded balls. And then I think after about two months, she got fed up with it. But she’s generally it’s odd being out with sometimes she gets recognised, people come out and approach. But we just got on with it now and she’s kind of taken a back seat away from a lot of TV because it’s, as you can imagine, it’s quite a fragile world that the press isn’t always as meritocratic as the one we would like to work in. [00:02:59][41.9]

Martin Henley: [00:03:00] No, I can’t imagine it’s like that. I know a few people on the telly because I did a comedy course about 11, 12 years ago and some of those people carried on and they’re on those programmes. And I think it just must be a bit weird. Must just be a bit weird as well, I think. But you were together before, were you? [00:03:15][15.5]

Steven Hyde: [00:03:16] So we met in the eighties, about 20 years ago. [00:03:22][5.9]

Martin Henley: [00:03:22] Okay. And similarities is a brand of United Biscuits, is it? [00:03:26][3.6]

Steven Hyde: [00:03:27] That’s right. Yeah. [00:03:27][0.4]

Martin Henley: [00:03:28] Yeah. So you’ve done like the FMCG. Is that what they are? First movable consumer goods, biscuits and lipstick? [00:03:34][5.9]

Steven Hyde: [00:03:34] Yeah, I sort of my my career is sort of into to sort of to sort of air as if you like. So I came out of university in 91 and, and did what a lot of people want to do when they do a business degree is going to market to work in FMCG brand and do that whole thing for me and I did that for best part of ten years ended up as a as a sales director at Disney. And then I realised that I really wasn’t right for that world. In fact, I had had that feedback a couple of times. No, I wasn’t doing one of the job. The people could see that there was something sort of gnawing way at me, and that’s why I ended up pursuing and starting my own business. [00:04:22][47.6]

Martin Henley: [00:04:24] Okay. Cool. Excellent. And you describe it in one of the places I read about it. You describe it as a performance marketing business, as being in the in performance marketing world. That’s interesting because I don’t think enough people still are particularly concerned about the performance of their marketing. I think people are quite happy to fly blind with their marketing. [00:04:48][24.6]

Steven Hyde: [00:04:51] Yeah. It’s funny you should say that, because if like, if you dig really deep about why we started Push in my old world and, you know, working for brands like Disney and Pepsi and so on, I’d come across a lot of advertising marketing agencies and they the impression I got from a lot of them was that they were not massively performance driven. There was a lot more that kind of counted as being a big deal. And when and when actually as a story, sort of a story related to that, which, if you like, I’ll expand on. So when I was it when I was at Disney, I was I was actually told off by my managing director at the time. They told off or used that term loosely, but she wasn’t she was concerned that I wasn’t spending enough time with some of the key customers and spending too much time with one. So one of the big customers that she wanted me to spend more time wining and dining were. HMV. Woolworths Smith’s, the company that she thought were spending too much time on was a company we now know as Amazon, and at that time it had about 4% share of Disney’s Disney sales. But I could see that the data they had behind them was going to be immense in the way they drove their performance. So I kind of got frustrated and I would say quite a few more toys out of the prime. But I certainly I was quite exasperated the way some agencies were now about phrase, you know, in marketing or advertising. I know that half my advertising works because I don’t know which top. It kind of stopped being a thing once Google came up with Google AdWords or Google AdSense and the whole advent of digital was really corrected that so you really could tell where you were getting the returns. It became much more measurable and predictable, and it revolutionised marketing in many respects, but it didn’t take everyone with it. There were a lot of companies that a lot of marketeers that I remember having their heads stuck somewhere and they just didn’t change. They resisted change. They kept on. We used to hear things from big brands that would say things like, You need to know about remarketing to remarketing just I’m sure you know. But the people that don’t is when you go online, you see something might be a pair of shoes or a coat or a cooker, and it follows you around. We were one big cookie brand and I remember them saying we well, that’s not our brand. We don’t we don’t want our adverts to be seen by people reading the Daily Mail. And we said to them, Yeah, but these people are coming to your site looking for a range cooker. They’re then going away and they may well be on the daily amounts that by default they’re these these old Daily Mail readers. It just happens to be that we’re re we’re re serving your adverts to them and it’s working with the brochure downloads. But yeah, there’s a lot of resistance in the early days. [00:08:05][194.1]

Martin Henley: [00:08:07] Yeah. And it seems to me that this is like you say exactly like you say, this is the opportunity provided by digital marketing is to know what what you’re spending and how it’s working. And and it’s not perfect, but it is the opportunity. Do you know I mean, that is that is the opportunity. And I teach digital marketing is what I do for money. And when I talk to people about this, I say, you know, it was John Wanamaker who came up with that saying in the 1850s. And I say, if someone were to come to me from from a team of mine and say that in 2022, we would take them to the car park and dispense with them know. I mean, because that’s not the point. And but before digital, everyone was quite happy just to fly blind. And this is where this idea persists, that marketing is just an expense that you do away with as soon as things get tricky, you know, I mean, people don’t seem still don’t seem to understand quite what marketing is and why it’s so important and and the cost of it and why it’s so important to drive performance and efficiency and results kind of blows my mind a little bit, I’ll be honest with you. [00:09:12][65.6]

Steven Hyde: [00:09:14] Yeah, me too. So, yeah, we’re I’m I’m I mean, I always learn that. So I, you know, I, I did my degree in Ma. I kind of went back to university, liked, I went out, worked, went back to university when I was 22 with a bunch of 18 year olds because I could see at the time this is the end of the eighties, I could see that it was I was finding it hard to get jobs in marketing because I didn’t have the right kind of qualifications and didn’t speak in the right way. And so I went to university, even though I’d gone and got I’d already got John YDSTIE of Marketing Diploma. But it wasn’t worth as much without a university degree. So when I got university degree and then the you know, that that’s the sort of all the all the right. So job offers came along. But I’ve studied marketing a lot as well. So I’ve studied marketing probably the best part of six years at like degree level. So I kind of know my way around. I really like sales as well. So, you know, I haven’t probably had I’ve got these as visual not they don’t want them like this time to be next to me here. But I’ve got this book of marketing and while I remember from way back when this advertising might simple which I did on a beat believe it or not so long ago but so I’ve always been interested in marketing and advertising and, and I’ve always, you know, I learnt that that, you know, it’s not to be treated as a as an expense. It’s central to the way that you run a business. It should become the driving force of your business in every respects because it’s about trying to understand the, the customer at the end of the day, customer, the consumer and really understanding what it is that they want. [00:11:00][106.1]

Martin Henley: [00:11:01] 100%. You know, it’s about understanding a market. And for me, I think I mean, I define marketing as sales and marketing as finding or attracting, winning and keeping customers profitably. And that for me, is what being a business is. You know, so if you if you don’t have that, you might get extraordinarily lucky where you have two clients for your entire career that that might happen. But that’s very rare. You know, if you’re in business, you should be in the business of finding and winning and keeping customers profitable. That’s that’s what I think it is. Okay, good. So sounds like we’re singing from the same hymn sheet, which is good. So we don’t have to argue very much. So we’ll bring some order to this, if that’s okay. [00:11:43][41.8]

Steven Hyde: [00:11:44] Yeah. [00:11:44][0.0]

Martin Henley: [00:11:45] You know, there’s only five questions. You’ve forgotten what the five questions are already, but I will remind you that’s okay. So the five questions are, how are you digital to talk to us about the specialism of your agency’s digital advertising? So how are you qualified to talk to us about digital advertising? Who do you work with? How do you add value to their lives? And what is your recommendation for people who want to get better at digital advertising? What should people read and who can be thrown under the bus? Who might endure or maybe even enjoy to have a conversation like this with me? [00:12:16][30.5]

Martin Henley: [00:12:16] So question number one, how are you qualified to talk to us about digital advertising? [00:12:20][3.4]

Steven Hyde: [00:12:21] Okay. So I think a number of levels really, because I’m sure, sure, like you, you see there’s a lot of people out there putting themselves out as experts. Some of them are not not that big. Young is a bad thing, but some of them are experts without a great deal of backup credibility, I think. I think what I have first of always is is the I’ve got the academic side of actually having studied marketing. I learn all of the all of the things that you can learn in the corporate world about what goes wrong and what goes wrong. But then I started from scratch in 2007. I started my own digital advertising agency. Well, actually, that’s not true. But what I started with one on the guy was a web design went marketing, which is that what it was called. [00:13:15][54.1]

Steven Hyde: [00:13:16] We were doing everything so we were doing in the early days, even though we’re already a handful of us, we were doing web design, search engine optimisation, some social management, email marketing to graphic design and of course PPC. And it was the PPC fit that we were really attracted to and that that’s what customers kept on coming back to. But I guess the thing that kind of, you know, sets us apart now or makes me, I hope, makes me reasonably credible, is that we we we got on to Google’s radar in about 2000 and. 14 and 15 is being one of the fastest growth growing agencies in their portfolio. Terms of the way that we were driving up spend so we they they obviously they looked at a thing called equity SSD same store growth. [00:14:11][55.7]

Steven Hyde: [00:14:12] So let’s say I’ve got let’s say you’ve got an agency and you’ve got ten businesses that you’re working for. And I’ve got an agency and I’ve got ten businesses that I’m looking after. They’re looking at how quickly the agencies will get more spend down their clients. So they could see that they saw what was then relatively smaller agency in tucked away in West London was really ramping up the specs that would take over a client and their spending would ramp up quite quickly over 3 to 6 months. Now, you only do that, of course, as you know, either if you’ve got some either if you’ve got something to hold them to keep them to that to contract, which we didn’t. But as you know, the real reason is, is because people can see the return that they’re getting. [00:15:00][47.6]

Steven Hyde: [00:15:00] They once they understand that the returns coming through, they keep on investing more and more and more and more. So that’s where we came out good was right up and to kind of so I think finish off the question on to now I’m sure you ask me more and we’ve built within digital we’ve built top level relationships not only with Google and we’ve gotten any entity from from Google was the head of Google India for five years on our on our board. But no one who is capable also with Microsoft very important and often often underestimated with with matter with tip top and probably left to a lesser extent Amazon. That support is not quite as strong, but we’ve got relationships with before and those Big four, we are constantly looking at how we can we can take what’s coming from and come on the road and implement that into to advertising across across all their clients. [00:16:04][63.9]

Martin Henley: [00:16:06] Okay, cool. So I think what’s interesting, like there’s a number of things that are interesting, but the thing that’s interesting to me is that somebody told me one of these conversations that digital marketing person, that digital marketing was marketing Google say Google first. Like when I teach people, I’m always interested to know who has some marketing experience or some marketing idea, because it seems to me that then what we do is we just apply that to digital, you know, digital. It’s just a set of new rules or new tools to apply those things. So I think the academic is really underestimated and I think the science is kind of underestimated. And before digital, the science was probably the psychology. You know, I don’t know how you feel about that. [00:16:54][47.4]

Steven Hyde: [00:16:58] Yeah. I mean, you couldn’t have asked a better question, really. I mean, the psychology is really important. And I remember even back in the I’m sure major now back in the late eighties, early nineties, doing my degree, you know, one of the things that would set were set was when you look at segmentation of of how so how how how a lot of lazy companies you know this is kind of before the Internet would segment their customers would be just quite simply on demographic geographic you know they look at it and they look at postcodes but what was said they and it was in is in the Cutler manual which was the best way of segmenting is on and remember the thrived with blue it was on psychographic or stock of graphic or behaviourist segmentation variables in plain language because the market marked is auto but some marked a lot to make things simple and complicated in plain language. You know what that is is something you market to people depending on how they not know, on the fact that you go on the block on you know you can’t just market to me with my I’ve got an example here actually love having brought it up with my this is the wool over its brochure because it thinks well I’m on 50 and so on I am wearing a wool jumper, but a lot of their designs are not what I want. But what you’ve got to do is look at what what am I interested in? I’m interested in snowboarding. I’m interested in in outdoor sports. I mean, I’ve got two young kids versus my age. So you start looking at people’s behaviours rather than just the demographics. The psychology is is really important in understanding and marketing. And if you like economics, psychology, all of those sociology, they all play really well into understanding marketing and how to make digital work. Because, as you suggested. It is in some ways there is a load of new language around. You know, there’s a lot of three that’s a abbreviation CBC for one’s rabbis and all that sort of stuff. But it comes down to you can’t move away from the classic the classic funnel, you know, of understanding people, how you how you segment groups, how you play messages to those different groups along that journey to become more engaged with you. So I think, I think sometimes marketing is is a bit like a football. It’s a it’s a simple game, complicated by food. And I’d say to say the same about same opting out, it’s actually relatively straightforward if you start off trying hard to understand your customer base. [00:19:44][166.2]

Martin Henley: [00:19:46] Yeah, I would 100% agree with that. And it was kind of, I, I started a marketing company 2005. I’d been working in sales for ten years, so I kind of, and I was one of those canvassing salespeople. So it was done my own marketing in the way that sales people can. So that’s how I kind of learnt. And then I was a little bit annoyed, I’ll be honest with you. 27, 28, 29 When all of these social media marketers crawled out the woodwork and had absolutely no idea how to engage anybody, you know, I mean, but they knew where all the buttons were on these social media platforms. And and I think there’s too, too much of that going on in the world. I don’t think there’s enough consideration put on the really interesting things. So to take your, for instance, PPC, I think is perfect marketing, you know, that’s the formula. You spend so much per click need so many clicks to get an enquiry and so many enquiries get sale. You know, that’s the most formulaic form of marketing there is. And in that instance you can, you could be forgiven for just giving up on the psychographic or the caring or knowing anything about your customers. You know, they look for the thing, they find the thing, except of course, I would say that that an understanding of your customer like being the thing that they’re really looking for at the point that they want to buy something is, is the added bit. I don’t want to say the secret sauce because I don’t think they’re secrets. Um, but yeah, that’s what I think. I think digital. I think it’s I don’t think it pays enough attention to to some of the good stuff that was that went on for the hundred years before there was digital. That’s kind of what I think. [00:21:22][95.5]

Steven Hyde: [00:21:23] Yeah, I think there’s, there’s, there’s some truth in that and certainly resonate with your comment about social media how many people social media experts and you know, of course you go to different areas don’t you, in even in this area, if you were to isolate in this digital digital world, you’ve got the the era of social people talking about social media. And suddenly you had accountants looking to try and get X thousand face experts and Facebook likes. And no one was asking the question like, and why am I doing that? What is that actually doing? Yeah. And there was a lot of I’m like you. I mean, I get frustrated and I actually get quite agitated when things are mis sold. I mean, I think the reason that we ended up focussing on PPC was because, I mean, we never when we started business we didn’t want to have. We didn’t want to have customers, that we weren’t getting results or that we couldn’t say, you know what, we’ve done a great job there. So I’ll give you an example. I don’t mind so long. I don’t mind quoting it. We did some work for NatWest Bank and which is what they paid us very well for some conversion rate optimisation work. This is back about 280 or so, but they net we had it was actually really simple work. We did that very revealing and there were some clear improvements which you could which everyone agreed. If I implement it, even like three of the top ten we recommended, it would make a massive difference to their business. We get well paid for it. And then they didn’t get it implemented because of it, because they got caught up in some political bureaucracy within within the business. And that that in itself is it’s actually quite demotivating, even if you’ve got a good writer having a good rap right down that you can. It just it was, it was not very nice to talk to be in that situation. So, you know, by default we ended up being going after the kind of business that we knew we could make an impact on because it just it’s not just about the money. And that’s so cliche. It’s not about staying, you know, doing a bloody good job there. And, you know, I wouldn’t even say you do a good job because you want to get more business, but you do it because it’s the right thing to do. Is the wellbeing pro up? You know, you you do you deliver your, you deliver what you say you’re going to deliver. So yeah. [00:24:04][161.1]

Martin Henley: [00:24:05] Yeah. 100% and so what do I think about that un. I think rather than businesses being run by data or metrics, it’s so often run by egos and especially the marketing bit like in the marketing part, everyone feels like they just get to do what they want to do. Do you know? I mean, like, I mean, that was my big frustration. I would go, someone would see me speak, they’d invite me into their business, I’d blow their tiny minds, they’d engage us the next time I go back. They’re the world’s leading expert on marketing, and they only want to do this, and I only want to do that. That was always my frustration. Um, and what I want to say about that, it’s, yeah, I think it’s too ego driven. And I think, like you say, it’s overcomplicated by idiots, like just to. [00:24:50][45.4]

Steven Hyde: [00:24:52] Do. [00:24:52][0.0]

Martin Henley: [00:24:52] Like learn the market and give the market what they want. That’s what that’s what I think. [00:24:56][3.1]

Steven Hyde: [00:24:57] I know there’s not many, but not many. Don Draper’s around the people. You know, if you watch Mad Men, the people got rid of their finger on the pulse. There’s a lot of wannabes that that will come in. And it’s frustrating as well when you’ve got a really good job for a client and the numbers to tell that story. And then you get we get we just get to the top and then a new person comes in and they bring in their new they’ve got new ideas, bring in the new agency and they’re there. They’re breaking something that’s already fixing something that doesn’t need fixing. It’s already working perfectly. Yeah, that’s very frustrating as well. We see a bit of that over the years and a there’s a lot of discussion around where some of the best people are relative to, you know, clients and agencies and all the rest of it. But you have got a lot of obstructions over the years, and a big part of our job in the very early days was actually educating people, which was weird in the sense that. We were getting paid a fee. But when we look at the apples that we spend on particular customer, quite a lot of that time is spent explaining what it is we do. The old the upper, which would be someone woke up and said, Oh, see, my ad on Google was like, Oh, you know, just explain to me why it’s not actually serving for that and all the rest of it. A lot of that has been at the forefront of this, this sort of digital. [00:26:34][97.5]

Martin Henley: [00:26:36] Yeah, 100%. And I was saying by the end I stopped like in 2014, I was saying by the end it felt like I was spending 90% of my time motivating people to do the right thing. Then I had 10% of time to actually make something happen. And then you’re back for another 30 or 40% trying to explain what’s happened and why it didn’t quite work out the way everyone was hoping. You know what I mean? Because I’m sitting here all day, every day just trying to convince you to do the right thing. I mean, that’s a huge I think that’s probably the biggest challenge in in providing marketing as a service is actually getting the opportunity to do the right thing. That’s what I found. But you’ve obviously nailed that because you’ve been on this now for 15 years. [00:27:18][42.0]

Steven Hyde: [00:27:21] You’ve reminded me of something. So in the early days, people looked around at some of the marketing books I’ve got in the early days, myself and Rick that you founded The Business, we came up with a phrase or an acronym for a client that we thought would end up working with us. We used the word Peapod. So what was that? Be the first one. Well, I’ll go in reverse order day with the decision maker. You was a very big one, which is urgency. So the clients, the ones that were most want close as enquiries were people that actually rang up and said, look, I’m spending whatever £10,000 a month, £20,000 a month on Google or whatever it might be, and it’s not working how it used to work. So the urgency was a big one. The two page one overseas budget, you know, some people having some sort of budget. The big one was the the first one was believer they had to beaver. We didn’t want to be. We were in the early days. We were in the early days actually trying to convince people actually doing something like that we recommended. MARTIN So just real, real simple things like, you know, remarketing campaigns or, you know, display campaigns that we could see were working. Yeah, that’s been a real, real pain over the years that we’ve had that. And obviously the market’s moved on now or it’s moved on, but we’re still in a zone where we’re trying to convince certain people to do things. So that’s shaped the way the company is grown up. And one thing I would say is, you know, it kind of kind of relates to the types of businesses that we work with, some we can’t work with, and some them are actually perfect for us. [00:29:07][106.5]

Martin Henley: [00:29:08] Yes. And I think that was that was my issue is I’d I was never in a position to turn any work away because I started with nothing and I ended it with nothing, basically. So and I love emails to fade. So but I think that qualification, I think that understanding who you can help and who you can’t and actually being in a and the only way you get to be in that position is just by doing it, you know, I mean, and suffering for a bit. I think that’s the key to being successful was the only thing I want to say. I want to say you’re selling Google, but your attitude is very different to Google because my experience of working with Google is they can give a shit if your campaigns are successful for you or not. They really are only interested in, like you said, they spotted you because you were driving up revenues. So that to me sounds like if you were very interested in the success for your customers, but they weren’t, I wish they were more interested in in their customers being successful. [00:30:07][59.1]

Steven Hyde: [00:30:09] On. I’m not sure that that I mean, I’m I would I would disagree in the rush to we have I mean they genuinely do help us a lot and we’re one of the lucky ones that would come on to calls with our customers if there was particular issues or challenges there, or share information or data from from sources from similar verticals. So I found them and the support we’ve had from Google was been very helpful. But I do recognise that not everyone has managed to have that. So it is quite polarising. We became in that top model I mean for for sure, but we were very high up in the top five European spenders in the channel group. So we had some we were putting a lot of money that way. So we get a lot of support. We continue to pour money to Google. So I would say the support we get in Google terms of answering questions, knowing what’s coming down the line is good, but it is one of those it’s quite polarising as you if you know it. It wasn’t like that for us in 2010 and it wasn’t till we got to a critical mass. They really started to come on. And back to your point is what about. Having to take work. That’s that’s a real that’s something we face as well. So very early on, you know, when when when you got a PPC contract and somebody is maybe paying you whatever thousand pounds a month for PPC contract, and they say, can you do websites as well when using websites or paying, you know, quite a lot of revenue. And that’s what we did in the early years. From 2007 to 2012, we took on pretty much anything within that, covered a lot of what I’d get for service, the digital. And it was 2012 that we took a decision which, you know, I did start a business partner, Ricky, that drove it. It was a question that my we we, we, we almost shut off all of the new opportunities for all those other channels, just took PPC and we spent a lot of our own money on the phrase AdWords agency, PPC agency, you know, all of those terms. And we went down on that. And then the overall business grew the and the share of our business that was paid advertising services grew from about two to about two thirds within a year. But that was quite it was a bit of an insight from Ricky. It was also probably just a bit of timing because it was, if you remember, 2008 and the recession, the credit crunch open by 2012, things were just starting to open up again. So I think we just got the timing right. [00:33:06][177.1]

Martin Henley: [00:33:08] Yeah. It’s interesting to me how many. I mean, I’ve spoken, there’s like these agency hub type things, like there’s, there’s agency support agencies now, you know, and it’s amazing how many marketing agencies don’t invest in their own marketing. Do you know about that? Yeah. You care about that. [00:33:30][21.7]

Steven Hyde: [00:33:30] Back to your point as well. Well, I do care about it. Yeah. I mean, I am back to a point earlier. We’ve. We’ve recently tripled our spend on all our marketing and advertising. So in the last I think we were going to talk about this and maybe it’s a separate question or point, but we, we, we, you know, in the face of what is. A recession or a recession or environment. We’ve increased our advertising spend up selves and we we’ve increased the size of the sales force. So. Well, we’re very much doubling down on on on future growth. And to your point earlier, I mean, there is very clear evidence from loads of studies that anyone cuts back into recession is counterproductive. Now’s the time to be really. If you’ve got a solid business and you believe in it now, now’s a great time to be increasing your advertising. [00:34:31][60.7]

Martin Henley: [00:34:35] Yeah, I think that 100%. I think, you know, all of the stuff they say is true. More millionaires created in recessions, all of those things. Everyone else is pulling back. Businesses are going out of businesses. Their customers are looking for suppliers. You know, I think 100% this now is the time to be driving hard. You know, I did this really barnstorming presentation in 2008 about when the last recession hit. And I was saying all of this stuff. And the thing is, the British economy is like the teacups, like if you compare it to rides in the funfair, you know, I mean, normally and there’s very little opportunity in that. So it’s only when it really gets much more exciting and becomes much more like a roller coaster that there’s real opportunity, you know? So I think 100% these are the times when people should be investing 100%. Okay. So the last thing that I’m interested in then is and you may not agree with this, but you don’t have to. It’s okay. It’s not getting better, is it? Like, I remember I started my business in 2005, so when we started on PPC 26, 27, it was literally like turning on a tap. It’s like, Do you want some customers? Here they come, you know, and you’ve got enough customers. Let’s just slow it down a little bit. And it feels to me that it’s much more. Much less. Much more complicated. And I don’t know if it’s much less effective. I mean, I’ve dabbled a little bit, but nothing serious in the last kind of eight years since I stopped running the agency. I’ve got a couple of clients and occasionally we’ll think we’ve got some money. Let’s put it on ads. Is it is it getting better or is it getting worse? Is it getting harder? Is it getting. How is it evolving? That’s what I’m interested to know. This paid digital advertising, how is it evolving? [00:36:26][111.4]

Steven Hyde: [00:36:29] I could talk for hours on this. So you are absolutely right, Martin. In the early days and where we take off and we take our undergraduates regularly, because the best way of getting smart people and checking them out when when they when they join push, we give them an induction. We talk about the different chapters of how life is evolved at Push It. And one of the one of the chapters in the early days we talk about how we make it lots of people in it. And actually it was quite it wasn’t that difficult to do. There’s no question that it’s become a lot more complicated to the extent that I think. And this might come just another question. But if I were to stop again now, you know, it’s very hard to have to start with a small agency with, say, ten people, because now you need really just two to work with any clients. You need good in-depth knowledge for several channels. It’s not just about in the past, you know, it was Google or the only show in town in 2014. You know, we started the at the time, as you did in 2014 you could still it was Google was going to absolutely don category to dominate the channel but then you’ve obviously got the emergence of matter and date Microsoft a very significant still in the global market and even more so some of the deals that struck recently. Then you’ve got these emerging channels like tick tock. So we’ve we’ve run campaigns for top clients over the last over the time world which have been had staggering results compared to where matter. But, you know, in terms of what’s for acquisition or the cost of games, so so it isn’t easy. It’s a long time since I managed or opened up a PPC campaign. So, you know, we have people that do that. It’s it’s it is more challenging, I think where it’s going I think this is your question is the skills that are needed now, it’s far more important now, more than ever, to really understand our customer base and that that kind of the way they make profits again, much more. We we encourage our team to have very strong commercial conversations with their customers. So their understanding of how they can build their growth over the different channels, whether it’s Facebook, Instagram, YouTube data or whatever it might be. So that’s one thing. The other thing that is almost contradictory to where we started is creativity and the visual image becoming far more important. You know, we could have built arches, built on clicks and text based tags, but now, you know, we’ve we’ve invested a lot in in creative people. We’ve taken that first tick tock push. We’ve got the geography. So that’s important. Now in a world where, you know, Google is controlling a lot of video, a lot of the way campaigns perform. So and you’re right, it’s not as easy as it once was, but there are things that you can be doing to to try to figure it out and make the most out of that situation. [00:40:12][222.8]

Martin Henley: [00:40:14] 100%. Yeah. And I early on, I spoke to a guy who’s a brilliant, brilliant YouTube ads guy. Um, and he was saying with what’s going on between Apple and Facebook, um, Facebook particularly, rather than the whole of matter is like Apple are basically cutting off the data. So it’s going to go all the way back to, it’s going to be about the strength of your creative, the strength of your targeting, like not just demographic, but like you say, psychographic. So it feels like it’s kind of coming around full circle. Lots of people are touting now display ads on Google as a replacement for what was going on on Facebook. Facebook, I read today they’d lost half the value of their shares this year. Google also seems in trouble in terms of laying people off and having a not particularly good run with their share price. So yeah, see, this is where it comes to me, where I think if I were just a little bit more interested in their customers, these should be the corporations that would be leading us out of any kind of recession. You know, they’ve got access to the market. And if they were, I think if they were more interested in delivering that value, delivering customers to businesses in a really cost effective way, then I think I’d be more a more accepting of them. I’ve got issues around these things. That’s what you’ll you’ll learn about me more about my. [00:41:42][87.8]

Steven Hyde: [00:41:43] I suppose if I were if I were Google, I would be saying, you know, in their defence for example, I mean this is probably a, this is a, this is a threat to agents is rather than to necessarily businesses. It’s a threat and it’s an opportunity. So the performance max to dot in varied make advertising to many businesses easier to do themselves. In theory they probably do need some help from from through agencies but I would say yeah, they I mean it’s a tech company but it’s they are looking to try and make advertising easier for for clients. They don’t want people to get bad results or bad returns. They want a good return. So I think that’s the drive behind performance, Max even is to try and stop wasted money and get money spent more sensibly. But now I get your point and that points to your making. Certainly looking at the future, you know, anyone in e-commerce is going to you know, if they’ve got a product that should be on Amazon, that’s a question to them about Amazon. Advertising is going to be enormous. I mean, very, very, very big. And and Apple obviously you know a brand that we would never have can really considered a brand that made money for advertising Apple and its own ad platform will become very, very substantial indeed. So I think the biggest business that’s under the most the most is likely to lose, if you like. If that’s the right word at the moment is matter I met is really losing out to tick tock which is rising very fast. I mean, I think Zuckerberg describes them as the unique competitor they are. They’ve moved. Tik Tok In my lifetime I’ve seen the emergence of lots of different forms of marketing with Tik Tok. The speed at which it’s taken and the result can be driven from it are incredible. So it’s quite a quite, quite strong platform for the future. But like I say, if you or anyone in e-commerce should be looking at Amazon advertising and equally keep your eye on what’s going to happen with Apple advertising as well in the future. [00:44:19][155.8]

Martin Henley: [00:44:20] Yeah, I think 100% I really do think Facebook have lost their way and it seems to be like when they brought the algorithm right. I remember there was a time where I would sit down and I would scroll and I’d be reading until I started reading something that I’d read before, you know, I mean, I could be there for 40, 45 minutes for that happens now. I don’t look at it for weeks and I will be reading something that I’ve read before within two or 3 minutes, you know. So I think they I think they had the most amazing thing and I think they kind of broke it. And then the trouble with these tech companies is they’re not great listeners, are they, that they really do run their businesses by ego, I think, rather than by the metrics. And I think it’s a shame. Are you ready for some good news? [00:45:01][40.7]

Steven Hyde: [00:45:03] Got it. [00:45:03][0.3]

Martin Henley: [00:45:04] Yeah. I think you are eminently qualified to talk to us about digital advertising. [00:45:07][3.5]

Steven Hyde: [00:45:09] Thank you. [00:45:09][0.3]

Martin Henley: [00:45:10] You’re very welcome. So it’s a bit tense when we get here because one day someone’s not going to be qualified and then not going to have to have a kind of short conversation. [00:45:17][6.5]

Martin Henley: [00:45:19] So let’s go to question number two. Question number two is, who do you work with and how do you add value to their lives? So this is really, you know, who who is getting the best value out of digital advertising. [00:45:30][11.0]

Steven Hyde: [00:45:35] And. So all will will roll with this. I’ll try and I’ll try answering a number of different ideas. So first up, broadly speaking, the two different types of customer that we might work with. One is e-commerce customers that there’s a sale at the end of the week or late days, that somebody wants a form filled phone to ring or something to happen. But there’s not necessarily a sale. Before the pandemic, about 35% of our customer base was e-commerce. Now, more like five 70% e-commerce. We in terms of scalable business, you know, who do we work with? We work with. If you look at the line of business market, we work with virtually all businesses from very, very small, with very modest spends, you know, perhaps $500,000 a month all the way up to hundreds of thousands of dollars a month. We don’t work with enterprise clients. A explain why shortly. But the big thing that we are looking for with anyone in terms of who do we work with and how do how do we work is we work with businesses that can move fast. If they if we recommend something, we we took ownership of their campaigns. We don’t want to be told two weeks later that someone needs to approval to write copy or they want to you know, they’ve got to sign off on our display doesn’t work like that we we are expected degree of control to work within brand guidelines. But speed is of the essence in this market, absolutely vital in a marketplace where things change so quickly. And that kind of leads on to think so how we add value. So I will say that one aspect of it. So there’s this there’s this rule of rule of thumb, this data, there’s evidence for it, which is this. And that is that in a marketplace where or in a world there’s this move out of advertising, in a world where technology is advancing at an exponential rate, organisations are typically adjusting much more slowly, a little bit. Right now there’s a guy called Scott Brinker coined the phrase MarTech law, which means between marketing technology and and the speed at which organisation, which is the gap. I mean, I’m going to use my arms badly, but the gap is widening as time moves on. You got getting bigger and bigger. Bigger. So I often explain to our to our team when they’re when they’re when they’re looking and they’re in the detail and in the weight of what they’re doing, whether they’re on Google campaigning, a shopping campaign they’re working with with some people on YouTube or whatever. I tell them that a job is to understand that gap for our customer. Explain where they identify where the opportunities are with channels and and to make the most of that relationship. So typically what we’re looking to do is to find the best channel, whether it’s Google, Facebook, Instagram, all the guys that we’ve talked about and allocate our clients money to those channels to get them the best return. And that’s what that’s what we’re supposed to do. If we don’t do that, we don’t decline that or go elsewhere or stop doing things altogether. And the work that we the one of the most important things that we need to do to make that work is to stay ahead of what’s coming. Because there’s a there’s. A rule of thumb, which is the quicker that you try the new stuff, the more likely it is that you can keep your average cost per sale lead tick down. If you’re white or white white, it’s the other people to take on those new initiatives your way, be a later doctor or whatever. You won’t be quick enough to realise the benefits because you take, for example, as an example now a tick tock, appetising. There’ll be businesses out there that are procrastinating and wondering whether or not it’s right for them, even though the customer tick tock on this story for them. But the white whale, by the time they go in and they’re advertising to get this act together, it’ll be due next year and the costs will have gone up in that particular channel by whatever 60%, whatever it might be. So in the meantime, their competitors will have gained a massive advantage by jumping in and learning what’s working, building up their knowledge base and starting to really exploit that new channel. So the big thing we do is learn fast, implement fast and move to get to get our customers to the returns that we want. It’s a challenge that we think fit for them and loads more on that. But that’s kind of in essence what we’re doing. And I think I think there’s a bit about take responsibility. Well, we don’t. Be we we do expect to be judged on performance. You know, we do expect that if we don’t get the performance right for a customer, that we will be retained by them. The big thing that’s difficult with the staff, the conversation is, is how you set an expectation about what they should what they can get out of their money, their marketing money. So that’s a that’s not as easy as it used to be. Back to your earlier statement, Martin, around, you know, in the past, you could you could spend you could save that if you spend 20,000 a month on Google for a particular customer, you’d get that thousand return. It’s not as easy, but there are still what you can make some good, good, solid predictions. [00:51:46][371.4]

Martin Henley: [00:51:49] Yeah. And I don’t know if this is true. It’s more a feeling that I’ve got. Is that because everyone’s every there’s a war going on right now for the short video attention started by Tik Tok. Instagram want to catch up with reels YouTube. This week I think I’ve just made a number of announcements about rewarding creators more for shorts. I think the more the platforms do is they reward the early adopters. You know, there is. There is. It seems always to me a much better opportunity at the beginning of these things than there is at the end. I mean, that’s maybe that’s just too obvious for me to even say. But it does seem like now, if you were to invest in reels, you stand a much better chance of doing better on Instagram than you would if you were investing in photos still. Is that true? [00:52:39][49.7]

Steven Hyde: [00:52:39] Yeah. Yeah. Very, very true. It’s true of them. I don’t think it’s going to go away. For those of you that can’t see an image of me, I’m I’m I’m someone that is is basically shaved their head because I don’t have hair. And we were with a a hair transplant company like start off with three clinics. We sort of we just give them campaigns. But what we were able to do over over a span of about decade is constantly adding new new titles like Time like Sports Start, Work for them, YouTube advertising as well. But the speed at which we added new stuff might allow them to scale up from about three clicks to about 30. And it’s it’s very hard to it’s very hard to show people the evidence of the client, which is not for all for different reasons, because you’re not you know, it’s like you’re not really getting a true test and using you know, you’re often used in one business or multiple channels with fast. But, you know, you’re right when you say feelings, it’s intuition. I would say believe, believe strongly that the quicker and I believe that there is there is real evidence that the stronger and quicker you go into new channels, if you do it the right way, the more likely you are to succeed in the long term. [00:54:15][95.8]

Martin Henley: [00:54:17] Okay. And then the thing that’s interesting to me is that these platforms aren’t. [00:54:21][4.9]

Steven Hyde: [00:54:22] All. [00:54:22][0.0]

Martin Henley: [00:54:23] Equal, all delivering different things. So I would say that people see the opportunity of pieces to put yourself right in front of the right person exactly when they’re looking to buy. So that would be much more about generating sales where some of these other platforms aren’t as direct to sale. It’s more about you’re hitting them earlier in the buyer journey, maybe you’re building awareness and those kinds of things. So. But people tell me that people will buy directly from a Facebook click. And now I’ve spoken to people who are saying that people are they’re getting better. They’re getting better sales conversions from display ads than they are from PPC ads, which frazzle my mind. It shouldn’t be like that. So I. [00:55:10][47.1]

Steven Hyde: [00:55:10] About that. Yeah, I think it’s how we define it is if you think it pay per click, you know, rather than search. So certainly if you look at that funnel, being at the bottom of the funnel is someone is someone that’s going on for other. By. We have the best, best, best trail of trail running shoes, you know, for Gore-Tex trail reviews. But further up the funnel, you know, it’s like somewhat like this, like takes someone like me that runs that perhaps doesn’t wear a particular brand. Further up the funnel, you’ll find me looking at maybe on tick tock or some exercises or or on Facebook or Instagram. I might be looking for something similar there and they’re able to build up a profile. Oh, this guy looks like he’s into running and that’s where you might start to serve up. So the lighter content around, well, this is the smallest way to, you know, to to trial around without injuring yourself, something like that. So broad. So that level of the cost per click. Those higher levels with display ads and beyond are a lot lower. And the further down the funnel, the closer you get to intent, the more competition there is, the more likely to cost. So broadly speaking, it’s it’s a bit like that phrase. You can have walk. You can have two of any sort. You can have it fast. You’d have a cheap, you can have it well-built. And if you pick any two of those three, if you if you want it, if you want it fast and well, but it’s not going to be cheap. But if you really, really want it cheap, then it’s not is typically by default. It’s going to be it’s not going to be fast. So one of the things we encourage people that are, you know, really challenged is over the long term is to build up a pipeline or funnel or fund multiple fund where they’re where they’re really nurturing those customers. That’s the way you get to ultimately, you know, the lowest cost per click or lowest customer acquisition at the school. Yes. [00:57:42][151.8]

Martin Henley: [00:57:46] Yeah, I 100% agree with that. I mean, like the people who are looking to buy right now and searching on Google who haven’t been impressed by anything they’ve seen anywhere and made a decision, you know, there is only so much of that. And I suppose exactly like you say, you have to invest in nurturing the rest of them along the line. It feels to me and I’ll tell you why it feels to me like this. It feels to me like it’s got to the point where if you’re not on the tools every day. It’s really hard to manage these campaigns on these platforms. And I’ll tell you why I think that is, because people have told me that. But also I’ve done a little bit of advertising. I want to promote this channel. I mean, the idea is that I want YouTube to pay for my retirement because I really don’t like them. So I think there’ll be some real justice in them paying for my retirement. And so I want to promote this. So I spent a little bit of money with Google and it wasn’t very much money. I don’t think it’s any value at all, but I didn’t care because, you know, basically I’m thinking, well, this gets me the opportunity to speak to someone. They can tell me how it actually works. It’s been an absolute nightmare. I can’t no one wants to talk to me about this, you know, to the point where I got on a call today with somebody and I didn’t want to I didn’t want to confirm my account because I’m looking at them on the camera and it looks exactly like it might look if you were if it was a scam out of one of these Indian call centres, you know, it’s yeah. So it feels to me like it feels to me like unless you’ve got full time internal resources doing this for you. You need an agency. I don’t think this is something that you can manage effectively yourself unless you’re running it full time. [00:59:31][105.4]

Steven Hyde: [00:59:33] Yeah, you’re right. I think back to the point you made earlier in the past, I would use a crude example in the past. Let’s say you and I were partners in a double glazing business in Oxford. Well, obviously in London we had a double blind business with our rooms around London in the south east. In the past, you and I would had a conversation. We worked out which one was a bit more computer savvy, and back in 2009, I could have probably gone on and put together a rudimentary campaign around the glazing and all that sort of conservatories and talked around London in the south east and we probably would have done okay out of that. Now that is really difficult to do. A big mistake I see a lot of businesses do is they think they they see the costs of an agency. And I think well, you know, so they’ll get someone to do it. I’ll get an intern to do it or get someone in-house to do it. It’s just I mean, I’m going to get I’m going to throw some numbers out there. But if somebody came to me now and said, I’ve got a business double glazing company with with seven showrooms around the south east of England or something like that, we’ve got you know, we make a lot of money, multi-million pound company, loads of people, hundreds of employees putting conservatory top down the south east. Somebody said, right, Steve, I understand you understand you’re now a digital and my boss wants us to get one person in the company to run two campaigns. I’d say, Well, that person doesn’t exist because a person needs to know about Google really well in depth and matter and probably the other channels and probably a little bit that FCO. I mean, you’d be saying if that person really did exist, the skills that are there at marketing CRM, I mean that you wouldn’t be paying someone 50 grand to do that. You’d be part of someone wired to six figures to try and do that job for you. So by default they end up you’re the choice they often have is to use an agency. Where I think is really challenging in business and this is across the world of UK. Where it’s challenging is that there are if you look at the the pyramid of businesses now it’s starting with the very, very top, the massive spenders on Google. Our people are spending by less than $1,000 a month and there isn’t anything out there. There isn’t an agency, you know, an agency to do anything that is meaningful. I know and we’ve been working at this for years to do anything meaningful. It’s very, very hard to get anything for $300, £300 a month. That sort of level is very, very hard. I mean, there isn’t a service out there where you can say, what, I would spend 99 quid on this service and and to manage my £300 a month Google advertising. It just there isn’t anything I would recommend at all and so a lot of businesses get left out. I con they can’t they’re too small to afford an agency and they’re too small to you know, they don’t know. They don’t have the time or the knowledge to work. And, you know, the typical person at the other end of the phone at a Google or or a member is not going to have the level of knowledge that an agency has. And of course, they’ve got, you know, slightly different agenda because they see only one channel. But it’s not going to have that knowledge to be able to really help that that person. So loads of people in the in the small business sector and as there’s there’s a lot of examples of people like I mean they try something, they speak to Google or whoever doesn’t work and they get bored. And that’s a real, real shame. And it, it’s, it’s, it’s a hard zone to be in. But I, it may grow up in ways that are working hard. We’ve developed around software and tool and which does help small businesses, but it still needs our involvement. It’s not it can’t be run. So you can’t just say how can this the customers are told just use it on their own because they’ll they’ll they’ll they’ll put their money and it won’t work. So it needs our it needs our support. And that’s a problem not just in the UK, it’s across the globe. Bit of a ramble there. [01:04:32][299.2]

Martin Henley: [01:04:34] No, I agree with you 100%. I think it’s got to the point where when I teach AdWords, when I teach Google ads, whatever they’re calling it now, I tell people, Google’s after your money. You know, that’s like that. That’s the lesson that I want them to take away is that Google wants your money. And I tell you, I mean, I’ve had people go away from like a days PPC training and set up AdWords agencies quite successfully. And I tell them you have to be religiously fanatical about making sure what it is that you want and putting in the hard yards to make sure you get that. Because if you let it slip and you are a small business and the united slope, you know, Google will eat up your budget in a second. That’s that’s what they want to do. So that’s always my recommendation for people who are doing AdWords specifically. I mean, I’ve never even spent you say I’m one of those cynical old people. It was so good, man. My 25, 26, 27, like there was still organic available. You could still rank a website. You know, it was so good. And now, I mean, I’m not a big fan of corporations. Maybe that’s why I couldn’t be in it, because I couldn’t be putting money in their pockets all day, every day. [01:05:43][69.4]

Steven Hyde: [01:05:45] I think as well when you have to I mean, one thing I would say is that. In a corporation that is out to do to do the wrong thing. It just it just like it is the nature of law, businesses and organisations that they end up in a certain place. And sometimes it’s not what they intentionally want to be. But yeah, it, it did used to be a lot easier and it’s more difficult now. And I can say I talk very passionate about this, about, you know, what kind of businesses can be held to where they should go. I think one of the biggest myths is that you can get someone in the house to do to do a certain job for you in a world where the channels that you might need to engage with your group, Facebook, Microsoft and so on. To give you an example, when you set about how you have to be hands on, we’ve been doing this for years now, but in my own world, when I was in the court of law firms, consumer goods world, we get training maybe once every six months. You go away for two days in hotel and learn about the latest, you know, whatever approach to negotiation or approach to, you know, some some sort of legal aspect of business. So, you know, three or four days a year, our team trade, even if they’ve got five, ten, 15 years, but they are threatened every week for a minimum of around two or 3 hours on new products and new techniques. So it’s constant. We used to do it every Friday and a Friday afternoon, but it’s now it’s but it’s it’s really constant and relentless. And, you know, that might be someone learning about Google campaigns or or indeed any of the other platforms. But yeah, you can’t you can’t you do need a lot more expertise is needed generally and. [01:07:49][123.8]

Martin Henley: [01:07:50] Yeah 100% in. [01:07:51][1.1]

Steven Hyde: [01:07:51] The past. [01:07:51][0.1]

Martin Henley: [01:07:52] Yeah I agree with that 100%. I mean, I wouldn’t. Yeah. I did all these things when I was simple, you know, I used to stand up and show people these tools. This is how you put campaign together. Like all of them. You don’t talk about linked in at all. Do you do you get on with like 20 too much related? [01:08:08][15.7]

Steven Hyde: [01:08:13] Yeah. Yeah. It’s funny you say that, because, I mean, I do. I do look at LinkedIn regularly. Um, I saw recently that it was once the most trusted social platform, but it’s dropped to second. I find that LinkedIn, for me, this is a personal point of view and I find that has changed. And now I, I’m getting I get about five new contacts a day to me. And they’re virtually they’re virtually all trying to sell something to me and that for anyone out there that that that tries this, they’re doing it really badly. MARTIN They’ll be like, oh, hi, Steve. Because connect like one. Why not disconnect? You have no problem with that stuff. There’s certain companies I won’t connect with, but that’s another conversation. And then and then two days later, you get. Hi, Steve. We do whatever search engine optimisation. We do this, we do it, we do that. We do finance. We do. I’m a fitness guru. You look like, you know, you get all that stuff the any chance we could get on a call for 15 minutes and and you know, I not because I I’m not a rude person and I feel guilty. I get so many people that connect with me and back in the day again, which were back in the day five years ago. So I’m connecting on LinkedIn. I’d be horrified. It’s still not aligned to the message, but I can’t now because I get I mean, for one, I get so many messages for two. The second reason is. Whereas in the past it used to be. People looking for me to help them or have it virtually all people looking to too to me. And and this is for anyone. I say this to our own guys as well. They’re also doing it by way that, for example, they won’t actually look at what we do. So we’ll get people trying to sell us. You say, for example, we get people trying to sell us and other service like lead generation services and they haven’t really understood. Then you get the new tactic where they would look something on your website say, Oh, I see, you would like to go to the well done. That must be really hard work down to that by the way to to do are you interested in not support by the way. Would you like to outsource to wherever. I’m sorry. I’m always employed. Martin. What? I’m going to I’m going to go on my LinkedIn profile, something I’ve written out, actually. I just have been of bitten the bullet and said, what, I’m actually going to do this. And it kind of goes along the lines to say, Look, I’ll connect with you, but don’t expect me to. I can’t answer. Remember, you don’t try and like guilt trip me though I haven’t answered the message because you know, and it’s frustrating because one in every 20 will be someone that actually could do with our services and that she’s asking. And then I kind of might miss it because I’m just hazed over with all these people contacting me. Yeah. So what I do do is, is I pull quite a few videos out there on LinkedIn and just talking about stuff, whether it’s particular sectors that we’re running here and they’re talking about what’s happening in our world. And I just do a quick 42nd video, put it up on my phone, and then just post it that way. So that’s useful sometimes. But yeah, don’t get me started on people selling through to it’s really bad because of it. [01:11:47][214.5]

Martin Henley: [01:11:49] I think I had the worst one the other day. This guy, fitness guy connects connect with him. And then the next thing is like, thanks for connecting. People was swinging and they’re doing a lot of swinging. I’ll swing by in a few days with something. I mean, I’ll think of it as a lot of swinging. So there was one the other day and I said, That’s too much swinging for me. Thank you very much. This guy connects and then he wants to send me his PDF and I don’t want his PDFs. I said, you know, happy to connect, but please don’t be spamming me. And then my professional headline is like expert motivating and educating business managers and owners, blah blah, digital marketing. And then he came back and he’s like, Oh, you really motivated me. And I say, I okay, thanks very much. I’m cancelling the connexion right now. And he’s like, Well, you beat me to it. The thing is, I think this is what’s missing. Like from Ad Day, it’s like I was for those five, ten years that I was mainly on the phone. Like I became expert. I get myself in and out of situations. I mean, just having a bit of grace, not upset, do you know, I mean, that the manners that you had to have to do it are completely gone now because we’re doing it digital. Like they’re not seeing a face that don’t see a person. Yeah. I mean they’ll say, I don’t know, whatever. Anyway I could rant about that, but let’s not. Okay, so question number three, we’ve got 7 minutes remaining. Are we still good? [01:13:06][76.7]

Steven Hyde: [01:13:07] Yeah, yeah, we’re good. [01:13:07][0.5]

Martin Henley: [01:13:08] Okay, super cool. Question number three. And if you could keep this brief, like to a minute or two because we’ll chop this out and put it on TikTok, what’s your recommendation for people who want to get better at digital advertising? [01:13:19][11.2]

Steven Hyde: [01:13:22] I would recommend for anyone who wants to get better at digital advertising is to focus on the the latest and fastest growing channel and to really build up their knowledge in that channel and dive in. So in that case is actually TikTok. If you said to me now what a bunch of people want to start a new agency or they want to be a digital consultant, I’d say just focus hard on the fastest emerging channel and milk that out of that. [01:13:51][28.7]

Martin Henley: [01:13:52] That’s a great recommendation. And are all businesses do because it’s just kids on TikTok doing silly dances. We all know that. So is it all businesses that are doing well on TikTok or. [01:14:02][10.3]

Steven Hyde: [01:14:04] It’s not all businesses, but I you know, I wouldn’t say I’m not I’m not going to say that I’m the only one that coined this phrase. But I did I did come up with it originally. And it’s like, tick tock. Remember when you thought WhatsApp that was just for kids? Because we all thought, what’s that was for kids? We all thought Facebook was just for kids. And then it became a cohorts into the others. So we are seeing I mean, of course it’s a young a young cohort on TikTok, but there’s a lot of other a lot of other older groups that are coming on to Tik Tok now, just like they did with WhatsApp, just like with Facebook and Instagram. So your businesses aren’t doing well, but it is typically it’s a lot it’s still still relatively easy to get results where you’re targeting a slightly younger audience. You wouldn’t be doing some holidays just yet on TikTok, but there will be a point where that comes. I mean, it genuinely do. That’s maybe the metric is a lot. How quick people will be on TikTok. Yeah, I’ll give it. [01:15:06][61.9]

Martin Henley: [01:15:08] Yeah, 100%. I also think that I mean everyone everyone gets to these places in the end, I think. And. Yeah, I think there’s a lot of people leaving Facebook. And so, you know, they’ll be picking up a lot of those people. Okay, cool. [01:15:21][12.3]

[01:15:21] Question number four, what should people read? He says something that you write that has left an impression on. You think there’s something that’s it’s important that marketers are reading. [01:15:31][9.9]

Steven Hyde: [01:15:33] Yeah. I’m going to say there’s a lot of books that I. I read. Generally, I mean, more for a marketing book. There’s a book called They Ask You Answer by Marcus Sheridan. So that’s a decent book to read. That’s that’s probably one of the marketing books I’ve read in the last five years. That’s one of the best ones. There’s another book I’m looking at. My shelf is not the book. I’ve read it called Pitch Anything, you know, Pitch Anything by a Guy Who Clap. That’s a really good book as well. So that’s for people that are pitching. So those are two. And then, um, and if you just want more personal development, that one’s good. The daily stoic journal keeps me and keeps me grounded and not running away with any kind of self-importance. I did the daily stoic. So that’s excellent. Cool. [01:16:30][56.7]

Martin Henley: [01:16:31] That is it. [01:16:32][0.6]

Steven Hyde: [01:16:33] Yeah, well, that’s those. Those are the books. I mean, I’ve got plenty. I do. I mean the other thing I would say, um, is good question. I’m glad you asked that question because I, I see the people that do generally excel and get on are people that rain and keep learning and developing and they’re always hungry for more than a quick, very quick story. We we have a small team that helps out in Noida in in in in Delhi and got seven people when my business partner Ricky visited the we were looking at outsourcing some some tasks where we we visited in fact came across this guy and I met him and the guy built a company from nothing. He we worked it out. He worked on his dad’s farm, built the company up to about 300 people. When he walked into his office meeting had in his office, he had five of like the eight books that we always recommend people to read, you know, like classic ones like seven have a rich dad, poor dad, all those sorts of things, you know, kind of get people in the zone thinking grow rich, all that sort of stuff. But what’s what keeps us well, I say to my kids and to people who join us is just never stop learning, keep keep learning, and you’ll see a real difference. The people, you know, kind of the difference between those that are happy and successful and some of those aren’t is just that just that attention to actually carrying on, learning to carry out carry on learning, improving. [01:18:08][94.4]

Martin Henley: [01:18:10] Yeah, 100%. It’s like they say every good idea has been written down. You know, you don’t. You just you just have to go find it. And it’s interesting because sometimes it’s like books. Some younger people, it’s like content. Should people consume? You know, maybe they’re not reading books, but the ideas are all out there, I think. And what’s important. Like your if it’s 3 hours a week, you’re training your guys. That’s in an insane amount of education that’s going on. What’s that? That’s 150 hours. That’s three months training there. And now is is three weeks training they’re getting every year, you know, more than not. [01:18:42][31.9]

Steven Hyde: [01:18:42] Yeah. And we take the what the classic days away and stuff like that as well. So it’s a lot of training. [01:18:47][4.3]

Martin Henley: [01:18:48] Good. Excellent. Thank you for that. I will link to those. So I’m going to I’m going to start framing this as the International League of Marvellous Marketeers, so desperate, will also go out on the tiktoks and the rails and those places is reading recommendations. So yeah, hopefully we’ll get people reading. So how are you feeling about your experience of being on the Talk Marketing show? [01:19:08][19.9]

Steven Hyde: [01:19:10] It’s been really good fun talking to you. You’ve asked great questions. I mean, we didn’t we didn’t talk before a great deal about the questions that you might ask. But they’ve they’ve been they’ve been easy to answer for me. And I think I can answer them with a real degree of conviction. I’m glad you didn’t go into any detail on how to run PPC campaigns because we quickly. [01:19:32][22.4]

Martin Henley: [01:19:35] I honestly think people need to find and somebody knows how to do it. [01:19:38][3.2]

Steven Hyde: [01:19:39] Yeah, it’s not like a run. One of Britain’s one of Britain’s biggest people. I mean, that’s genuinely true that perhaps there is that we got 70 people. But that that tells you something that that that sometimes businesses can’t grow because the owner just stays hands on all the time. And you have to you have to take a leap of faith to move on and start trusting other people. That’s a that’s a real blessing in itself. [01:20:05][26.5]

Martin Henley: [01:20:06] Yeah. That’s why I think I, I think the business owner is always the brakes on the business. It all goes on within. If it all goes on within what they’re comfortable with, then that 100% is limiting, isn’t it? Okay, good. The reason I asked you how you felt about this is because now I’m going to ask you. Throw a couple of people under the bus. So you should find it easier given that you’ve enjoyed this. So who? It works. The way it needs to be is it needs to be people that you can introduce me to in the way that Ben introduced me to you. Or he didn’t quite. He told me I should get in touch with you, and I did that. [01:20:40][33.3]

[01:20:41] So who do you think might endure or maybe even enjoy to have a conversation like this with me? [01:20:46][4.9]

Steven Hyde: [01:20:48] So one of the guys I think would be really useful as a mate of mine who runs a conversion rate optimisation business or conversion. His name is Paul Wilkins, is a lovely bloke. I worked out in India at some stage work for Lastminute.com, so he’s got loads of experience. So when you go into that, what makes you qualified? He’s going to he’s going to fill your boots out, ready with his qualifications. Saheed He’d be my lead sort of choice. I would say there might be some people I could talk to around that might talk to you about other aspects like search engine optimisation or so on. But I think Paul would be my go to person. [01:21:35][47.2]

Martin Henley: [01:21:36] Okay, fantastic. Is there anyone else, one more person that you could throw under the bus? We’ve got about 50% hit rates if you give me two. The odds of me talking to someone you’ve recommended will go up. [01:21:46][9.5]

Steven Hyde: [01:21:48] Can I have a think about it and come back to you? Because I don’t want to just throw stuff. I just know I don’t wanna throw someone on the bus or throw people on the bus all day long. But I just wanna find the right I want to have a think about it, get the right people so that you get the best value out as well. [01:22:01][13.5]

Martin Henley: [01:22:02] Okay, super cool. Now that’s absolutely fine. I trust that you will do that. So what we’ll do now is we’ll say goodbye for the benefit of anyone who’s still listening, and then I’ll press record and we’ll say goodbye like normal human beings. But I have thoroughly enjoyed this. This has been really interesting and really useful. It’s kind of confirming. [01:22:21][18.9]

Steven Hyde: [01:22:21] What. [01:22:21][0.0]

Martin Henley: [01:22:22] I thought was going on. You know, I’ve not been in the game for the last eight years, but it’s interesting. You know, I am interested still. I am teaching, I am kind of keeping tabs. So it’s kind of concerned a lot of what I felt. And I think, you know, you’re doing good work like the world needs businesses like yours to intermediate for Google and Facebook and all of these companies because they’re not very good at doing themselves, I think. [01:22:49][26.8]

Steven Hyde: [01:22:52] Thank you so much. [01:22:53][0.5]

Martin Henley: [01:22:55] You’re very welcome. [01:22:55][0.0]


Martin Henley

Martin Henley

Martin has built a reputation for having a no nonsense approach to sales and marketing and for motivating audiences with his wit, energy, enthusiasm and his own brand of audience participation. Martin’s original content is based on his very current experience of running effective marketing initiatives for his customers and the feedback from Effective Marketing’s successful and popular marketing workshops.







Leave this field blank