Brand is an ongoing blend of the emotional and the rational – Talk Marketing 020 – Barnaby Wynter

Martin Henley 0:03

Good morning, Mr. Wynter.

Barnaby Wynter 0:06

Good morning Mr. Henley. But you can call me Barnaby, Martin.

Martin Henley 0:10

I will be calling you Barbie for the rest of this conversation as well. But what I say is I like to start formally. And then you know, we’ll see how far into the gutter we actually end up.

Barnaby Wynter 0:19

Yes. Okay.

Martin Henley 0:19

That’s the way it starts.

Barnaby Wynter 0:21

Okay. Start high.

Martin Henley 0:23

We’ll start high, because we’ve got no idea how low we could go. Thank you so much, man for agreeing to spend this time with me. We are speaking on the recommendation of Robert Craven. So if this is appalling, it will absolutely 100% be Robert’s fault.

Barnaby Wynter 0:37

It’s all Roberts fault, whatever happens unless it’s good. And then he wasn’t involved in any shape or form to be fair so.

Martin Henley 0:43

Exactly, yes. Let’s go with that. That’s fantastic. So we trust Robert, so we are here speaking, I had a fantastic conversation with Robert, just about a week ago, two weeks ago. And I’m talking about marketing. So as you know, this is kind of conversational. There are only four questions. The questions are, how are you qualified to talk to us about marketing? What is it that you do for your clients? How do they find you? How do you feel about marketing? And what is your recommendation right now in this situation that we find ourselves in? So but that will keep us busy for about an hour and 15 minutes? If you’re cool with that?

Barnaby Wynter 1:19

I’m cool with that.

Martin Henley 1:21

Fantastic. So shall we start at the beginning? I don’t know you. So this is going to be an interesting conversation. I have Googled you, so I know that you, the one thing I know about you is that in 1999, you were the youngest MD of a top 200 marketing agency in the UK or something. And that’s all I know about you. So let’s just start at the beginning. And you can tell us all how you are qualified to talk to us about marketing.

How are you qualified to talk to us about marketing?

Barnaby Wynter 1:47

Okay, so it’s always easy to talk about yourself. So I started with a psychology degree at Dundee University with the sole intention of becoming an educational psychologist; realised halfway through I wasn’t going to become one of those, because it wasn’t my style. I settled on advertising as a career. So left University, missed the deadline for applying for a postgraduate course so, went and rode around Australia on a motorcycle for a year. Came back and did a postgraduate diploma in advertising and also one in marketing at the same time. From that shot straight into the advertising industry, worked for nothing for an agency called Lonsdale important square on primarily the Abbey National accounts. And after that three-month period came to an end, I joined a small agency and firing into launch thinkable, the fit to carto the fear theory No, I worked in Saab-Scania trucks, RJ Haul Car Leasing and Weber Carburetors.

Took on my first mentor, after about eight months in the industry and sat down with him and said what do I do? He said, well, if you are going to pursue a career in advertising, automotive is a great place to be; it’s the second-largest purchase anybody ever makes, you’ll always have a career in that. And I said, that sounds really interesting. He said, you got a CV to die for, going forward and I said, Oh, that’s really cool. I said, what are the alternatives, then he said, well, the other thing you can do is you can become what’s called a specialist generalist, in other words, you work across lots of different clients, learn how business works, and then maybe later on in your career, you can be more advisory in a business sense. I said, well that sounds really good as well. I said, which one should I do? And he said, am I right in saying that you ride a Vespa Scooter and you’ve got a Beetle Cabriolet and I said, yes, and I have both still today. And he said, you’re not a motor head so do not go down the automotive route, because you won’t like Formula One racing and talking about Lamborghinis and Ferraris and whatever for the rest of your life. I said, Okay, fair enough.

So, from there, I spent 18 months at that agency, and then got a move to Ogilvy and Mather, which was one of the world’s largest agencies at the time, to work solely on Ford, and I relaunched the Ford Sierra and I launched Ford Granada, and did a whole Ford campaign there and I worked on Ford for about four years. But within six months, I started to hector the management, can I work on something else, can I work on? And they said, No, you only work on Ford and that’s all we do, it’s a 60 million pound account in a 180 million turnover office here in London. You only work on that I said. So I just kept hectoring, every morning for six months until eventually I got the chance to work on a pitch for a thing called Argos which was a magazine catalog retailer in the UK. They had just exited from BAT industries and they were looking to relaunch. Anyway, so I’ve got to work on the pitch for that and we won the account, which is really exciting. Everybody’s really pleased and I went back to Ford. And then John Mayhead who was the then marketing director of Argos, said one of the conditions of our being awarded the account because everybody worked on the pitch for this account, and of course, I was on that overhead slide which will probably mean nothing to any of the younger audience but was the precursor to PowerPoint, using plastic sheets and the large light bulb. So I got to work on Argos and over that period, over an 18 month period I got moved off Ford and I ended up launching, Bird’s Eye Health for orphans, Bird’s Eye Steak House, Radion Washing detergent and before I  left after six years I launched a thing called Lipton Iced Tea worldwide.

So completely moved away from Ford, away from autos and that thing kicked off the whole generous thing. I moved from the center of London to Canary Wharf, which is a big commercial area in London, miles away from the center of London, miles away from the action and at the time, it was in phase one build with only 20% occupation so I really didn’t like it there. So I moved back to Soho to launch Boots Opticians, Eurostar, which is the train from London to Paris. I launched Red Stripe lager and started to build a whole understanding of how the internet worked, all that sort of thing. So we’re talking about the early 90s. Then changed agencies again after three years, because they got bought by Grey and I really liked the small agency environment. So I went to another small agency startup to work with one of the most famous creative people in London at the time chap called Dave Trott. And he just started a new agency called Walsh Trott Chick Smith. There I launched Toshiba Home Cinema and worked on the Sunday Express, and on First Telecom, which was the first alternative to BT. And from there, I then got head-hunted to become the youngest MD, in 1999.

So within eight or nine years of me starting my career in advertising, I then became the undersecretary of what was then seen as the first fully integrated marketing agency. So this agency did everything from designing your logo and your reception area, right through to your television and your online presence, using a thing called the Brand Bucket, and a 6-step engagement model, so I was persuaded to join them. There we launched, some major brands like Etrade became the world’s largest online broker, booking technology became the world’s largest optical components company, rebranded Children’s Society, Marie Curie Cancer Care, big charities, so and then I bought that company in 2001, just prior to September 11, and then spent 10 years really addressing the massive changes that were going on in the marketing industry, the move from reliance on offline to online, through a whole period of change in the way marketing works, the way marketing strategy works, until in 2010, or actually 2009 I became, in fact, just go back a bit, I moved my business from a PAYE employment organisation with 35 Staff to, by 2008, I had 35, freelancers, and only two staff. So as people left or retired or changed jobs, we replaced them with freelancers.

So I had a whacking great building in central London, six floors with studios and meeting rooms and all these freelancers coming and going, working, a model that we developed over seven years. As part of that I became a professional speaker in 2008. And I’m on a platform in 2009 and being billed as a behavioural marketer, and I’m alongside a behavioural economist, and he says, there’s gonna be a double-dip recession, I really didn’t have the energy to go through what would have been effectively a third recession in my career so I moved to an outsourced model, spent a year taking the system and process and pushing it into the cloud, and in 2010, I pushed out on my own. So today, I now effectively represent a full-service agency I have somewhere in the region of 120 odd people working on my client businesses, they all work for other companies or side contracts, other companies and today I work with five corporates a year, fundamentally changing their whole organisation’s outcomes, to make them marketing led. I mentor business leaders, I’m mentoring 20/21 business leaders at the moment. I’ve written my first book, I’ve just finished my second book and I speak maybe 35 times a year. I’m also a non-executive director on three businesses as well. So I have this, this eclectic portfolio, all focused on really, fundamentally changing your whole business so it becomes marketing led. That’s really where I’m at today am absolutely loving it to be honest Martin, I’m obviously loving it.

Martin Henley 9:40

Fantastic. I’m a little bit embarrassed now that I asked you how you’re qualified to talk to us about marketing.

Barnaby Wynter 9:47

It’s alright. It’s alright. You didn’t know anything about me so that’s absolutely fine. I’m okay.

Martin Henley 9:51

And now we know quite a lot about you, like a huge amount about you. Okay, so it’s interesting, where this kind of interests me at least is, the first thing is that your experience is hugely different from mine. Nobody has ever let me near anything like a brand, let alone the household names that you’ve been describing. I can’t imagine what a disaster that might be if somebody gave me a 60 million pound account for Ford, I can’t imagine what would happen. The second thing is this thing about marketing led. These two things are really interesting to me, because it never occurred to me until very recently, I was doing one of these chats and somebody explained to me that there’s clearly two types of marketing, there’s the marketing that you do if you’re a startup or a small business, where you might be looking for your very first client, and then there’s brand type marketing, where it’s all about keeping the machinery happening and being more efficient and more effective. So that interests me enormously. The thing about marketing led, is that my mantra is that being in business is effectively, and I’ve taken this from Robert, we spoke about this at length, but it’s effectively about finding, winning and keeping customers profitably. There is nothing in business that isn’t sales or marketing. So the idea that businesses might think that they are anything other than marketing lead frazzles my mind, absolutely frazzles my mind. I don’t know which direction we go in first, do we go in the brand direction? Because I’ve also read that you’ve been responsible for hundreds of brands?

How many brands have you been involved with?

Barnaby Wynter 11:34

That’s right. Yeah. So I have brought five, over 540, 557 is the number I quote, over 557 brands to market.

Martin Henley 11:45

To Market. So these are launching brands?

Barnaby Wynter 11:47

Well, to be fair, you know, the household names you talk about were launches. The fact they’re now household names is because the launch was successful, you know. It’s always an interesting one. When I wrote my book, it’s got a load of logos on the front, and somebody said really good book but the trouble is, is all about famous brands. That’s a response like, yeah, I think you might miss the point. Those brands didn’t exist before we got involved.

Martin Henley 12:13

Right.

Barnaby Wynter 12:14

The fact that they are now households is proof that the system works. So yeah, I mean, effectively, anytime you introduce a new idea in the form of a brand to the market, that’s a launch, isn’t it? It doesn’t matter, it might be from an existing company, like a Unilever or, or Ford or whatever. But effectively, the brand itself is a new presence in the market. So I would consider them all to be launches. So whenever I talk about bringing them to market, effectively they’re all launches in that sense.

Martin Henley 12:44

Okay. All right. So that’s interesting. Now, in the conversation that we had setting this conversation up, you were saying that it’s all about brand that you have to be a brand in 2021?

You state that in 2021 you have to be a brand, what is that about?

Barnaby Wynter 12:55

Yes.

Martin Henley 12:56

What is that about?

Barnaby Wynter 12:57

Okay, I always find the question fascinating. It’s because people have yet to define what a brand is. And it’s different from branding. So let me just, first of all, clarify that for you. Because most people muddled up brand with branding. So branding, is simply where you, you create a look or feel, a logo, a representation of a product or a service, and you put that into market, that’s branding. Actually, that’s got very little to do with brand. So branding, we asked ourselves this question back in 1999, because I was presented with the Brand Bucket, and I went to my first board meeting and I said, Okay, I get what a bucket is, what’s a brand? We had that day, 148 person years’ experience in the room of producing brands, thousands, over 4000 of them in fact and we filled out seven sheets of A1 paper off a flip chart on what we thought a brand was. When I’ve asked almost every audience, every workshop, I asked this question up front and people always say it’s the logo, look and feel, quality, it’s what people say about you when you’re not in the room, it’s the perception in the consumers mind. It’s, you know, all these quality, it’s you know all those sorts of things, and that’s absolutely not what a brand is.

So we spent three and a half months coming up with the following definition of brand hopefully this helps answer the question. We define brand as every experience that affects the relationship between a product or service and its buyer. The key thing about brand today is first of all, the perception of brand can only exist with somebody who has bought from you. Anything else up to the point of purchase is merely opinion, because it is the exchange of either time or money, and money is really a reflection of time. It is that at that point when people really have a clear perception of what the value is that you’re providing, but the key thing about a brand today is it’s a relationship. It’s a relationship that people value more than the relationship they have with their money. Therefore, the role of marketing is to create every single experience in your business so that portrays a relationship that every time feels like it’s worth more than the money in people’s pockets. Now, if you do that, people will give you the money in their pocket, in exchange for the relationship in their mind with you, now that relationship can come in the form of a physical item, like a product, or it will come in the form of a service, which is something that provides you different benefits in a different way.

So for me, brand is about building relationships between your product or service and the buyer. Marketing is the discipline of driving everything in your business to build those relationships and business itself is simply a set of commercialised relationships. What you’re doing is selling the product you produce, or you’re selling the service that you provide, in exchange for money in the form of a relationship. So for me, brand is a relationship. Then, when you start to think about that, I think Robert’s approach which is create, nurture, and everything is a little too one-dimensional for me, because what I want to be doing is, I want to be sitting with the guys in the warehouse, or be sitting with the guys in product development, I want to be sitting with the people who answer the phones and communicate with people who are buying from them, I want to be sitting with the people who produce the communication that stems from the organisation and all of those people have to be part of the value story that they’re telling, because that’s what people are buying a relationship with. The outcome, the output. So this is a bit one dimensional to talk about, it is a mechanic for generating leads, looking after the leads and converting leads, etc. That’s, to me far too one-dimensional, which is why in the end, you’re right, absolutely right Martin about the business today is all about marketing. As long as you define marketing as the mechanic by which you commercialise relationships with whatever it is you have chosen to sell.

Martin Henley 17:30

Wow. Okay. Good. Interesting, just thinking because I’ve had, I’ve been on a bit of a journey with this idea of brand. I started as a salesperson and for 10 years, I was a salesperson, and I was one of those hunter-gatherer-type salespeople. I always found myself in businesses that didn’t invest a second or a penny in marketing. So it was left to us the salespeople to go out and canvass and find the customers and do the work. So that’s kind of where I came from. So at that point, I had no respect for brand whatsoever, because the brand wasn’t supporting me, wasn’t helping me. In as much as I believed in brand, it was about the brand that I was developing, the relationship I was developing with my customer and it didn’t matter what I was selling. Then what happened is I started The Effective Marketing Company, because I was of the impression that I’d been in the sales teams with none of the budget and all of the target watching the marketing people laud it up with all of the budget and none of the target. So I was going to help myself to some budget, that was the idea. What I ended up doing is kind of counselling people, like if I was a proactive salesperson in your business, this is what I would be doing.

So that was there, then digital marketing came along, and it got very exciting and also not very much about brands, you know, because you can be in the right place at the right time with the right message and you don’t have to have this huge relationship, you know, so that’s not very much about brand. And then in 2013, I started lecturing for the Digital Marketing Institute. And there was this whole thing about display advertising, the whole module, like half-day about display advertising. So now I had to start believing in it because I had to teach this thing like why would you invest a penny in brand awareness, in building those associations, those relationships, whatever those things are if you can just buy a sale through PPC or do you see what I’m saying?

Barnaby Wynter 19:42

Absolutely.

Martin Henley 19:44

Yeah, so actually, it’s not been a roller coaster. It was like a long, long uphill and then quite a short down hill. Well, okay, now I get brand and I’ve had to get it so I can teach it, that’s the thing. On another one of these chats I spoke to some Rik Azzopardi Malta, and he is much more of a brand, what’s the word? A brand cheerleader.

Barnaby Wynter 20:14

Advocate. Yeah. Yeah.

Martin Henley 20:15

Advocate. There we go. Thank you. So he says that he sees the role of marketing as fighting the decline in value from commoditisation.

Barnaby Wynter 20:26

Right. Okay.

Martin Henley 20:28

And that screams to me the value of brand. I’m going on a bit.

Barnaby Wynter 20:35

My challenge with this is, which is great, but then, you know, I guess my question to that is, has that person ever launched a brand, created a brand, put a brand into market, because if they had, they couldn’t use that definition, it just wouldn’t be possible because it is way too transactional. The moment you start, whenever I hear create, nurture this, type of, you know, commodity, whatever, I just realise, these people are all way too transactional in the way they think about it.

Brand is an ongoing blend of emotional and rational from beginning to end. Unless you genuinely understand that, you have no concept of what a brand is, because we’re buying into a relationship in such a way as it’s going to enhance our quality of life. It fits with what we’re about. There is a very particular journey that people go through on that. So, when I hear these definitions I get, yea I can see how that would work for you but it isn’t a brand, that’s not what a brand is, a brand is you know, for me, brands are like people, you know that they just, the glue that sticks us all together so that we can all live our lives in a similar sort of pattern and shape, demonstrate individualism, you know, they’re much more meaningful than the transaction thing because I think people are still trapped by the idea that marketing is a tool or brand is a tool to generate sales. It absolutely isn’t anymore. It is absolutely the raison d’etre for all business ideas, it’s this sense of belonging in the environment, it’s a thing a real thing.

You know, at the end of the day, you know, when Ogilvy got sold to WPP, part of the selling price 60 million pounds was for the brand, right? Well, I’m sorry, that’s not about an uplift of commodity or whatever it was the definition of the thing. It’s just nonsense. If the brand was something that existed in the consumers’ mind, it would never be an asset of a business, brand has always been seen as an asset of the business. When you sell a business, one of the most valuable assets you can have is your brand. So when I hear people put these kinds of transactional definitions on them, I just go Okay, I’m sure it works for you. I’m sure you’ve got a great life and a great business. That’s great. But that is absolutely not what brand is. Because you can’t place your definition as an asset on a balance sheet. It’s just nonsense. Absolute nonsense.

And actually, I learned this from Guinness, very funny. So I suppose I was at Ogilvy and I was working in the Unilever account team and we were right next to the Guinness account team. And I used to get in very early I was one of the earliest people to arrive in the office and the chairman ran out of his office Mike Walsh and said we’re all Guinness team. He walked up to me said where all the Guinness team. I said I don’t know. I think there’s a big shoot going on and they’re shooting the next Guinness commercial. So I think they’re all out of that. He said oh my God, he said Guinness are holding a conference in Centrepoint Tower in central London. And we need a representative. What are you doing today? And I wasn’t smart enough to go actually, you know, I’ve got my real job. He said, okay, and I’m paused for longer. Right? You are going and representing Ogilvy & Mather at this Guinness conference. I didn’t work on Guinness didn’t know anything about Guinness anyway. So I went and introduced myself and said, Oh, great to have the agency here. That session was a session for agencies about the way Guinness approach the market. So it was all really interesting. There were like 300 agencies there and there was me the representative of the current agency who had the Guinness accounts. So I sat in the front, blah, blah, keep referring to me. Look, we break for lunch, and we come back and the session after lunch is the head of finance of Guinness. Okay, there’s a purpose to the story so bear with me.

I come back because I’m part of the agency and there’s maybe 60 people in the room of the 360 people because they’ve all looked at the agenda and they’ve all gone to lunch and they’ve all gone. Actually we don’t, we’re here to listen to the FD. And he stood up and he said first of all great to see Barnaby here. I was you know embarrassed and he said not surprised to see so few of you have come back. We at Guinness believe this is the most important session immediate post-session after lunch for you as agencies to understand how we as clients work, he said, so he said, what I’m going to do is I’m going to go through the balance sheet and the P&L. And you can visibly see all the sixty that had come back and went *sigh* like this. And I’m thinking, right, this is a bit interesting. And so he went through it, and he literally went, Okay, this is how it works, raw materials, bottling, licensing, blah, blah, he said, and then there’s other he said, and as you can see the other, there’s a budget of 20 million. He said that’s you guys. He said because you as agencies don’t have a place on our balance sheet or P&L. He says, so let me just go through it again. Here’s the scenario, I get a phone call. And I say we need to cut 5 million from your budget from the accounts this year. So he says I go through it and he says so should I cut bottling? No. Should I cut raw materials? No. Should I cut distribution? No. Should I cut licensing? Oh, what’s this big figure on the other? 20 million, I’ll change that to 15, nobody will notice. He said that’s when you guys get the phone call to say our budget’s been cut.

Now anybody who’s worked in the marketing industry will know that there are regular calls from clients saying we cut out budgets because naive accounts and their position was very clear on this, he said what a naive financial directors do, is they think that cutting the marketing budget has no impact on the business. And they keep everything else going. He said. And he went through that. And then he did it again. And by the time he finished, there’s like 3 million left in the other thing, which is our budget, having started with 20. Now we as big agencies knew that we will get given budgets on January 1st of 20 and by the end of the year, we would love it if we got five out of it, you know, and he said, so at Guinness, we fundamentally ring-fence, that money that goes into building the brand, building the relationships, and making sure, he said because we know that if people don’t come buy our products, it doesn’t matter how good our bottling is, or our raw materials are in the warehouse or our licensing model. If there’s no one there to buy the products, there is no business because that’s the machine. And I took that as a massive lesson right way back when and thought that’s fascinating. My job is to convince my clients that the sacrosanct nature of the budget that is allocated to marketing, because that is the very essence and the fundamental of being in business, which is effectively producing a great product, producing the right service and following relationships without at a commercial level with the outside world. If you don’t get that you don’t get brand, you don’t get marketing, you can throw at me all your, you know, transactional commodity, nurture things until you’re blue in the face. The reality is you don’t have a business unless you are a marketing lead.

Martin Henley 28:02

Good, I’m with you. Now, this is interesting, because this nurture thing that you’re talking about isn’t the conversation that Robert and I had, the conversation we had was about this, if you’re in marketing, you’re effectively in the business of buying customers, that’s what you’re doing. At that point, then marketing becomes as quantifiable as anything else they’re buying, bottling, production all those things. Then most naive among accounts directors can see, actually, if you put in front of them, you’re paying this much for your customer, and you’re getting this much value from your customer. This is the value that we are we are bringing, and our mission is to drive the customer value up whilst the cost of customer acquisition goes down. That then is something an accountant can understand. I think it’s a failing of marketing that they don’t talk about that, they don’t present it in that way.

Barnaby Wynter 29:00

Yeah. In the transactional conversation, I agree with you 100%. Yeah, but in the world of brand I don’t agree with you at all, you don’t buy anybody. I think that I find that kind of idea, sort of abhorrent, that kind of ideology. Actually, what’s changed in my 35 years, it has always been my belief that in the early days of advertising, when advertising dominated the marketing mix, it absolutely doesn’t anymore we were effectively putting out invites to have a relationship with us. It happened to come in the form of television or press or radio, or perhaps cinema as well in the early days. Clearly the onset in the online arena, but actually that level of marketing is a shop window. It’s an invite to buy, you’re always inviting people in and what’s changed in marketing strategy today, it’s a fundamental shift, its shifted over the last 20 years, is where you need marketing to be working is to mop up all the people who are already heading your way. Because what’s happened with the knowledge economy in the digital economy is that buyers are far more astute, sophisticated, and equipped when they come to buy.

So where I started, maybe you did as well, Martin, when you’re in sales, where I started, there was this idea that you were solving a problem that often people didn’t even know they had. So actually, what we would do is we were forced problems on the marketplace. People go, yeah, I’ve got that problem, haven’t thought about it, but I’ve got that problem. And then they will come and buy you as a solution. So that’s characterize certainly the first 15 years of my career, we saw that change as we were doing our research in the mid-90s as a result of the internet, because people went, what people did is they wake up and they go, I got a bigger problem. And then they start to go online and look and go, etc. Now, what happens, 88% of all buying decisions start online, according to the E-commerce Foundation, and Mary Meeker, and that’s, certainly amongst the younger generation. And that seems to be reflected in everything I see in the older generation. And it’s also true of b2b and b2c. So 88% of buying decisions start online.

So what happens is people wake up in the morning with a problem, and then they Google it, and they go, oh and then they realise that other people have the same problem. But other people are also offering up solutions. So very quickly, they get a little shopping list of that could be a solution that could be a solution that could be a solution. And by the time they contact you, according to CEV in America, by the time people contact you for the very first time, they’re more likely to buy from you, than not buy from you. So there’s no, you’re not buying anybody, what you’re doing is you’re providing a pathway to your product or your service. And that’s how you should be using the engagement strategy with a marketplace. There’s none of this blasting out and buying people and it’s all way too transactional, it’s much more, people are out there, they’ve identified their problem, they’ve qualified their problem they’ve identified you as a solution. And now what they’re doing is they’re heading towards you. And what you’ve got to do is you got to literally as they reach you, hold out your hand, take their hand, and lead them into your way of solving the problem they’ve already identified and just say, this is why we do it. So you got to make it easy.

So the perception of value is much more about service. It’s much more about ease of buying than ever time before and actually the product itself, actually, the price in many cases is irrelevant. Otherwise, you wouldn’t see you know, Deliveroo, delivering your burger king, right, you’re paying more for a Burger King, it’s going to be lukewarm when it arrives Yeah, rather than fresh from the griddle, but people will pay more for that or, any food or if you go on to an Expedia or you know, onto Amazon, the product itself might be a bit cheap, and you’re gonna pay transportation. So you end up paying more for the product than you would if you went bought it from a shop, but no hassle, no parking, no getting into town, no bumping and you know, rubbing up against other people when you don’t want to, actually is all done around you. So I think today’s marketing strategy, today’s business strategy must be marketing lead, is all about creating these amazing journeys to providing your version of the solution that they’ve already identified. You’re not buying anybody, you know, they’re coming voluntarily, in my opinion.

Martin Henley 33:59

Okay, good. Okay, so I’m laughing because I can’t remember the last time any time somebody said that they found what I’m saying to be abhorrent, that’s why I’m laughing. I feel like I did. Okay, so I shouldn’t be talking about buying people

Barnaby Wynter 34:14

No.

Martin Henley 34:14

But winning customers, is an investment, takes an investment of time, energy, and money. So maybe that’s the better way of framing that and maybe you’re buying those transactions. And then you have to keep investing in those relationships like you say, if you want to keep those customers and have the customer value increasing. So please, I’m not in the business of buying people.

Barnaby Wynter 34:44

I didn’t accuse you of that, you were quoting someone.

Martin Henley 34:46

Oh no, I’ve said that. I’ve said that hundreds of times to 1000s of students. So maybe I need to think about it a little bit, so.

Barnaby Wynter 34:54

I just think the reason why I find it difficult to cope with is because, you know, I’ve been doing this as a profession for over 30 years, you know, and the idea that I’m out buying souls is just, it really makes my head hurt. So it’s, you know, it’s because, okay, it’s always been an invite to do business.

Martin Henley 35:14

Yes. And I, and I think you’re right, I think the customer is more informed and more empowered, and more in control of, like because when I was phoning people in 1992, talking to them about advertising opportunities, they didn’t know about advertising. You know, they certainly hadn’t spent an hour on YouTube, looking at all the different reviews of the different, you know, so they are more empowered, customers are more empowered than they have ever been. And I think they are more motivated. And people, when I worked on the phones used to say to me, Martin, don’t you think if I wanted this, I would have called you, you know, we had to manage that whole thing. Whereas now, absolutely, if they want something, they’ll call you, then they’re better empowered to do it.

Barnaby Wynter 35:58

Yeah

Martin Henley 35:58

I’m a little bit surprised that you’re resisting this, because my guy in Malta is a brand, branding, brand investment, brand ambassador. So basically, what he was saying is fighting the decline in value from commoditisation. So that, I think is a defence of kind of brand investments, because what he’s talking about is, there is commoditisation, and the difference between a commodity and not a commodity is brand, is the relationship that you’re talking about. Is that, is that not true?

Barnaby Wynter 36:35

Or I wouldn’t have said so, no, I don’t see it quite as simply as I think, you know, I think a toilet roll is probably a commodity, I think bread is a commodity, and yet, actually, it still stands up to people have relationships with that commodity, and there’s a difference between buying a, you know, Hovis, or a Warburtons, or, you know, a Clean X or something like that. Now, I don’t necessarily agree, but there are many, many drivers of the relationship. So, if I don’t have very much money, then I’m probably going to go for the cheaper version, yeah, if I have a little bit more money, and I want to feel a little bit more luxurious, I might go a different version. So I don’t, I just, I do sort of commend businesses be very careful not to go down the commodity thinking, transactional thinking route in its own right, and just rely on that. I think, also, you know, product life cycles, if you end up creating a product that’s very popular, and the sector grows, and everybody has one, then inevitably, you’re going to be commodity. So, therefore, you know, yes, of course, you might get a distinctive thing. And I think the other thing strategically is people often muddle up what we call brand’s steel versus market growth, they’re two different brand strategies, and they don’t blend into one.

Now if you’re in marketing and a market growth market, then your brand will be the thing that pulls you into the market. If you’re in brand’s steel mode, then, of course, your brand is going to then pinch market share from other people around you. So you need a brand to just keep alive at commodity level because you’re effectively using the nature of your relationship to say we’ve got a better relationship with our commodity than our competitors. And that’s what happens in a commodity market is there’s lots of competitors, and they’re on price and distribution and packaging, and all that sort of thing. So the brand has an entirely different strategic role in a commodity market in other markets. So if you’re launching a brand, you’re probably going to be driving market growth. If you’re launching brand into a brand steel market, then actually you’re gonna always probably find you’re struggling. And it’s going to be a very expensive thing because you’re effectively launching into an existing market, which is why, you know, the adverts for your toothpaste always say the new exciting never done before toothpaste is still toothpaste, you know, it’s because they are adopting a brand steel strategy in a commodity market. And that’s how you can use your brand. But it’s also about access, it’s also about service is also about you know, all those sort of things it can be on a toothpaste, basically how easy the top is to get off, you know how much toothpastes’ left in the tube before you throw it away and things like that. The whole environmental part of it all that sort of things, there are many dimensions to even a commodity market which, so I don’t think it’s that simple.

Martin Henley 39:50

But I think he sees commoditisation as the risk and I say this to people also, if you’re in a market where it has become commoditised, where the only differentiator is the price, then basically, you’re screwed already because somebody will come along who can offer it cheaper than you. And I think his point was that the brand brings value outside of that commodity. So you can defend your pricing if you’ve got that built-in value, which is that relationship that you’re saying is the brand.

Barnaby Wynter 40:24

Yeah, I think that’s right, I understand now, I understand that. The reality is that if you’ve been running a business and you find yourself in a commodity market, then what you’ve got to do is you move that in the Boston matrix to cash cow, and you use the profits from that, although they’re diminishing, to drive new stars in your portfolio, you do NPD, you develop different things away from the commodity so actually the commodity is simply funding your business, and indeed, the business growth. So from a business strategy point of view, if I saw that my product or service was becoming commodity, I would do everything to cash cow that for as long as possible, but use the cash flow out to fund the next innovation that sits within the organisation, and then start to make money where I can get a premium on something that’s entirely new, I think what tends to happen is people think they’re only in that market, and they keep getting defensive and they cut costs. And you know, you buy a Mars bar today, and you know the packet looks the same size, but when you open it the Mars bars about a third of the size of the actual packet because they think oh, well, we can befuddle the buyer by saying that looks the same in the packet actually, the mars bar inside it’s smaller, a bag of crisps is another good example, he buy a small bag of crisps, like four crisps in the bottom, but the packets will always stay the same size you know. That’s just poor business planning, in my view from a commodity point of view. Because the language around marketing, sales operations is all transactional. It’s all commodity-based. Rather than saying, actually, we have an opportunity to build the relationship, which I guess is what he’s saying. I just think if you’re, if you genuinely found yourself in a commodity market, I would just cash cow it and, and use the money to create something new and exciting from a brand point of view.

Martin Henley 42:30

Okay, wow. So yeah, so when I think about wherever brand has the greatest value? Yeah, think about perfume. It’s scented water.

Barnaby Wynter 42:47

Yes,

Martin Henley 42:30

You know, and if it didn’t have a brand on it at all, it probably wouldn’t sell at all, certainly not for the amount of money that some people sell perfume for. That’s where I think brand has like, and you think about handbags, they put a Prada logo on a handbag that costs five pounds to make and they can sell it for 500 pounds. I don’t know if these are the actual figures, I don’t buy handbags. This is where I see the huge value of brand. I actually had Chanel turn up to one of my marketing strategy trainings, I used to run these half-day trainings in like London and Brighton and around there, and Chanel turned up. And I was like astounded, amazed. And then afterwards, I kind of grabbed hold of this person. And she and had a conversation. And it’s like, you know, I’d like to come and do some stuff if Chanel are interested in this sort of stuff. She’s like, Martin, you have to understand that we’ve got eight people employed out of outside the United States. And so this business Chanel turns out, it’s like is minuscule in terms of number of employees’ range of products, actual value that they are delivering in the world, but is a monolith in terms of global brand? Sure, you know, so that’s, and that is entirely about the relationship that people who buy Chanel have with Chanel.

Barnaby Wynter 44:18

Correct.

Martin Henley 44:19

You know, they must know that they’re buying 25 pence worth of scented water for hundreds of pounds. They know that and they like that, and that’s

Barnaby Wynter 44:27

Yeah, I think I actually genuinely don’t think they know its 25 pence worth of scented water. I think they don’t need to think like that.

Martin Henley 44:37

To be fair, I don’t know if it’s 25 pence and I don’t want Chanel to sue me.

Barnaby Wynter 44:41

I don’t think anybody buys Chanel and thinks, I wonder what the cost of manufacture was for this. I genuinely don’t think people even get that far.

Martin Henley 44:50

That is the power of brand, isn’t it? Because you’re actually thinking I’m buying a Chanel product rather than what am I? And maybe at that point you’re so far removed away from caring about what it cost that you just don’t care. You don’t think about those things?

Barnaby Wynter 45:04

Yeah, I genuinely don’t think people think about that because they’re thinking about themselves, they are thinking about their image. They’re thinking about their style, the way they deal with life includes Chanel. So therefore they’re buying that as a piece of armoury to go out and face a modern world. I think where I would choose to answer your question about the value of brand is, let’s look at all of the brands that are dominating. Google, Facebook, Expedia, Airbnb, Deliveroo, Just Eat, Alibaba, Amazon. What one thing do they all have in common? One thing that they all have in common?

Martin Henley 45:49

Well, I think my idea of what they have in common is different from yours. So let’s hear yours first.

Barnaby Wynter 45:53

No, no, no, I’ve got an answer. What’s your answer?

Martin Henley 45:57

Well, my answer would be because of the way my mind works.

Barnaby Wynter 46:00

Yes.

Martin Henley 46:01

Is that essentially those brands are largely monopolies?

Barnaby Wynter 46:05

Okay.

Martin Henley 46:05

You know, nobody, Facebook don’t have competition. Google don’t have competition. Amazon don’t have competition, you know. So I would say that’s the first thing.

Barnaby Wynter 46:19

eBay we’ll add eBay. And I can eBay in as well. Okay. So obviously, they all do have a competition. I think you’ve got Yahoo and MSN for Google. They all do, I can find competition. Amazon’s got all sorts of competitors. And the one thing that, my answer, thank you for your answer because it’s a legitimate answer. But my answer is, that none of them produce the product they sell. None of them. Right. They’re selling other people’s stuff. So for me, this is where brand has moved to, it’s all about the way you do things. It’s the way you nurture the relationships emotionally and rationally. Right? That’s the defining feature. These businesses I’ve just quoted are worth gazillions on the stock market, right for all sorts, whether rightly or wrongly, but they do not produce the product. They sell other people’s stuff. Right. And I think one of the challenges that producers have, whether it’s a product or a service is they can’t get their head around the fact that actually, they have to layer a relationship tool.

And so what’s happening is the gatekeepers are jumping in with their clear understanding what our brand is, because it’s all about the way you do things, the relationship-building criteria, and these people are becoming the gatekeepers for everyone else. And actually, this started in the 70s, when supermarkets started. Most of my period on Birds Eye was always about, actually, there were two marketing strategies that were in place, there was the one that was producing the advertising to get people to buy it, but the other one was about persuading Tescos and Sainsbury’s to list the product because they were the gatekeepers. And if you didn’t have a listing, it didn’t matter how credible your advertising was people couldn’t buy your product. And at the time, Tescos in sizes represents something like 70% of all purchases out the freezer, you know, so yeah, there was Iceland and a couple of others, you know, but the reality was if you didn’t get tescos if you didn’t Sainbury’s, you were dead in the water as a product provider, and they were the gatekeepers, today’s gatekeepers all the ones I’ve just listed, the brand is Sainsbury’s. The brand is Waitrose, the brand is Asda and Tesco. They’re the brands now and what are they, they’re just buildings, you know, with shelves.

But actually what they’ve understood is how to create the car parts and experience and all that sort of thing and the way it works and all that sort of thing. And I’m sorry, guys, but if you are a product provider or service provider, you have to understand that today’s brand is about building commercial relationships. In other words, you’re going to change everything in your business so that it is orientated towards the buyer away from the business owner. And that’s where I make my money, Martin because I go into organisations where the business owner is gone, actually, I’ve got this but I have no idea how to do it. So I go into organisations and I completely turn the whole organisation from the shop floor, from the warehouse right up to the board level. So that everybody’s looking at the buyer, instead of trying to improve operations, trying to cut costs, and do all those sorts of things. There’s plenty of people in the business going to concentrate on that. But the reality is, you have to move your business away from transactional mindset towards relationship-building mindset with the marketplace.

Martin Henley 49:50

Okay, good. And I think I agree with you 100%. I do and but for me, if a business ever thought that it was about anything. I’m gonna say it again, ever thought, I know you don’t like it, I’m gonna risk your wrath. I’m gonna risk you calling me abhorrent again, business ever thought that this was about anything other than finding and winning and keeping customers profitably, then they were just wrong, all on their own wrong, you know, but that is what most businesses think. I mean, they don’t think that, you know, I mean it’s like, it doesn’t matter how good your donuts are, if no one buys them you don’t have a business, it doesn’t matter know how good anything that you do is if nobody fronts up with the money to buy it from you, you’re not in business, you know, it’s as simple as that. And this is kind of my reason that entra is just get people to understand that, you know if you can find it, and for me, it’s a puzzle, it’s a riddle that has to be fixed. You know, what amount of this, what amount of that, what amount of something else? What message? What offer? What? All these things work that out. Where are these people? Who are these people? Work out all of that stuff. And you can be finding winning and keeping customers profitably, and then you’re a really successful business.

Barnaby Wynter 51:11

Yes. Okay, I agree that at board level, marketing strategy level and business level, what actually has changed slightly now, is you don’t find anybody you get found. And the trick with marketing strategies, now you have to get found, because I’m telling you, all the business that you ever require to sustain any business plan that you put in front of me, there are people on the keyboards now looking for you, you need to get found, you don’t need to find anybody, that’s a broadcast mindset, it is outdated, it ran out of steam probably 10 years ago, is now, what you’ve got to do is you got to get found. Once you get found, you’ve got to be welcoming. And that’s your nurturing. So you still got to nurture people. And so I think in my world, the bottom of the bucket is still the same, you’ve got to nurture them in. But you’ve got to do that in a way which is about helping them to buy from you. So the nurturing, so first of all, you got to get found, then you got to help people to buy from you. And then when they bought from you, you’ve got to deliver something truly amazing, right. And if you do those three things get found, help people to buy from you, and be amazing, once they buy from you, you will have more than a sustainable business. And there is no finding, nurturing all of it. Because for me, that’s always the power is in with the brand owner, it isn’t, its with the buyer.

So you’ve got to get found, help people to buy from you and then be amazing once they have bought from you. So that actually what they goes, wow, this was really great value, I’ve given you my token of value, exchange money or time and you’ve rewarded me in spades. Now, the reason you can do that is because you’re producing what they need on a mass scale. So therefore the unit cost comes down. You know, if I wanted a Porsche, I could go and build on a kick car, Porsche, but it wouldn’t exactly the same, but I could build one but it probably take me 10 years, yeah, or I can work for a shorter period of time and go buy one from more or less every day, knowledge economies means that have very little we can’t produce ourselves or do ourselves but that the enemy that we have is time and actually what most businesses are selling is time, it comes in the form of money so it just means that I can fast track to the toilet roll, the loaf of bread, the car, the house, the holiday, whatever the delivered food, I can fast track to that and I’m buying that experience, that way of living life from people. It’s got nothing to do with the product, nothing to do with the price really because I don’t mind paying a bit more if it really improves my quality of life.

And so I commend anybody listening here to really really engage the idea of getting found, make buying from you really easy and then make owning your product or service amazing and investing all of that. Now this is where, only the marketing people, you put the ops guy in there and then they’ll go off systems, can’t do that. It’s sort of difficult, you know, we need to automate everything, put it into a CRM, we don’t want any human intervention, bollocks. It’s all costs cost costs, you want improve the shopping bag that you give people the items in Yeah, that’s what I want to do because that’s the experience you know, that’s a wow you know, etc. Only the marketing people are sitting there going, we need to put in place how you get found, make buying from us amazing and then make the experience of owning the product service truly amazing. Only marketing people think like that and talk like that. You and me.

Martin Henley 54:59

Okay, good. Right. So firstly, there is some finding still going on. I agree with you 100%. It’s grossly ineffective, it’s grossly inefficient. But there is still, the kinds of businesses that I work for that didn’t invest in being found at all, are still out there, and they’re still not investing in being found. Now, my realization when I became the Effective Marketing Company and digital marketing happened and Google happened and all this stuff, is that those 10 years that I’d been the hunter-gatherer, while I’d been out looking for customers, there had been motivated buyers looking for me that we never met, because they were never going to find me, because I’m always out looking.

Barnaby Wynter 55:37

Correct.

Martin Henley 55:38

So I’m 100%, in agreement with you about that. And for me, now, marketing is all about positioning because somebody who finds you, like you say, is a motivated buyer. And lots of the objections go away, even the price objection goes away, because they’re aware of all the range of prices, and they’ve decided to talk to you at your price. So you know, is much easier to sell. In fact, it’s pretty hard to sell. Like we were selling SEO at one point in our lives like you get to the top of Google for SEO Services. It’s pretty hard not to sell to those people when they pick up the phone. So I found you at the top of Google. Yeah, and I want to do this. And there is something weird going on. Like I still get emails every day from people saying, do you want us to help you with your SEO? It’s like, well, if you know that SEO works, and you’re capable of making it work, why are you broadcasting Caray?

Barnaby Wynter 56:30

Absolutely.

Martin Henley 56:31

So I’m with you. 100%. But there is still finding going on. But you’re right. I need to replace the word finding with something else. But there’s nothing that scans quite as well as finding or being found. So I agree with you 100%, that you’re a psychology student? Is that what you said?

Barnaby Wynter 56:51

Yeah, I got a degree in psychology everyone says yeah.

Martin Henley 56:55

Okay, so twice in my life, I’ve experienced this. So this might be the rule that proves the theory or, or whatever the exception that proves the rule or whatever. One time in my life, we were selling high-end event-type stuff, to brands, to your IBM’s, your Price Waterhouse, Coopers your these kinds of people, it was a lot of money. But what we were essentially doing is bringing buyers and sellers together. Yeah. So we would bring together, bring in the top 200, let’s say the top 200 buyers in a particular market that IBM are interested in. And we would bring in then, 30 people and they would have appointments over the course of this thing it was a lot of money was like 50,000 pounds. Yeah, the only way you could sell this, the only way you could sell this to like a country manager or a managing director of one of these brands, I promise you was to phone up and shit on them. And tell them basically, this is what I’m doing. But this isn’t gonna work for you. Because you’re not worthy, essentially.

Barnaby Wynter 57:59

Right.

Martin Henley 58:00

Whatever objection they come up with, you just say, well, you know, what, if you can’t make this work then just go away. I mean, you’re wasting my time.

Barnaby Wynter 58:05

Yeah.

Martin Henley 58:05

It was like a boiler room kind of situation. But I promise you I tried it every way. Because the kind of salesperson I was, was a relationship, make it amazing, make it easy for them to buy all that stuff.

Barnaby Wynter 58:16

Yeah.

Martin Henley 58:17

Didn’t fly for a second. You literally had to get hold of these people, shit on them. And then they would buy do you know? I mean if you boxed them into the corner, so it was like that reverse psychology. I’ve got this amazing thing. You’re not worthy of it. You can’t have it, you know that’s the way that worked. The second one is kind of different. But it proves the same point. There’s a restaurant in Cologne in Germany, where they have, you know, these huge pork knuckles that they eat.

Barnaby Wynter 58:42

Yes, yes.

Martin Henley 58:43

Yes, there’s this restaurant. And they are famous for being incredibly rude. Like when you walk in, they will not acknowledge you. And like my friend said to them, they won’t acknowledge you. You know, they drink those little tiny little beers. They’re topping it up like you’re thirsty, not getting drunk. But my friend had the audacity to ask them for some mayonnaise. And you know what they said? They said you want mayonnaise, there’s a kiosk over the road go and buy your own mayonnaise. To the point with this thing, where apparently one of the Presidents, President Obama or President Clinton wanted to go to this restaurant. And but they said like, you’ll have to close the restaurant because you know, security and stuff. You know, we’re not closing our restaurant. You know, it’s like, so sometimes, like you’re saying be amazing, make it easy for people to buy, but sometimes the exact opposite is what’s required if you’re going to sell something.

Barnaby Wynter 59:44

Listen. The great thing about my industry and being creative. See, I think that’s a creative solution to the challenge. The reality is the people who, one of my favorite lines is a line for the army, which is 99.9% need not apply. Right. And that was a campaign they ran for quite some time. There’s this amazing thing, people in the army, etc., etc., and you wanted to know whether you could apply and get through and whether you were part of the 1%. So I don’t have a problem with a reverse psychology, and actually, but what I would say is that, if the brand is well known if this restaurant is well known for being rude, if people don’t like being people being rude to, they’re never going to go there, right, so the only people that are going to go, they’re going to go, I want a taste of somebody being objectively rude to me, because that sounds like fun and all that sort of thing. And that’s their brand approach. And so that’s just a tactic. Martin is not a brand strategy, it’s a tactic, is a legitimate tactic, it works. I’m thankful that the rest of the world doesn’t think that everybody should do that, as would be like living in a torrid world of people, you know, trying to reverse psychologists all the time. But that is absolutely not where we’re at, at the moment. Most people are so well informed about everything that they wake up and decide what their problem is, they decide what their solution is long before they go into the buying market.

So when people approach you, you don’t have a website that tells me that you’ve been going 35 years and you got all these amazing stuff and everything, help me buy I’m not interested in you. I’ve already found all about, I know more about you than you know about yourself when I contact you. So don’t befuddle me with this outbound. This is how great we are. And these are all our products. You know, SEOs are a great example, I typed in, so there was an incident in Egypt, I think and Egypt weren’t getting any tourism. So I said to my wife, this is a great time to go to Egypt because it’s dirt cheap. And the security is going to max high because they want to keep thing. So I logged on, clicked on holidays to Egypt on Thompson’s, one of the big holiday horizon or one of the big holiday companies. And it took me to a ski page, right because it was ski season. And I thought you are lemans I’ve typed in, I want a holiday in Egypt and you take me to a ski page and I couldn’t for love nor money find the link to the Egypt trips, right? I just couldn’t find it even though SEOs, you know, cheap trips to Egypt via whatever the holiday company was, right? Clicked on that. And it took me to their front page. And I had to wade through all this stuff. Stop doing that, make it easy to buy, if I’ve typed in Egypt, take me to the Egypt page, right, and say, Wow, you know, if you buy this in the next 15 minutes, you know, you’re gonna get even cheaper still.

And I have a real problem with this outbound mindset now, that still sits within product producers, service producers, and meanwhile, all the gatekeepers, all the people who are the consolidators, all those sorts of things that are mopping up the relationships with the market in such a way as in the end, you won’t be able to sell unless you sell via any of the Deliveroos, Airbnbs, Amazon’s, Amazon and Google control the market. You know, you know, they’re the gatekeepers to the whole market. Because they get that it’s about the relationship with the buyer. And they built their whole machine. So all about one-click pay here, delivered in the next four hours, blah, blah, blah, you know, don’t leave your chair, we’ll have this product to you straight away. If you don’t like it, pack it up, send it back, it’s you know, why would you leave your desk for anything when the Amazons and the Expedias and the Deliveroos. Because they get it, they get it. And unless you as a business, get that right now I’m sorry, you’re gonna be gone in a very short space of time in my opinion or you become simply part of the commodity infrastructure that sits behind. And what you’re doing is you’re forever running around cost-cutting, trying to find efficient ways of doing it. So you can sell via Amazon or Ebay or Expedia or whatever. And I think that’s very, very sad. Because not all buyers want to go via those routes, they kind of like to buy direct, you know, so to build around that way.

Martin Henley 1:04:32

Okay, good. Are you ready for another challenge then?

Barnaby Wynter 1:04:32

Yeah, Go. Go. Go on.

Martin Henley 1:04:39

All right. So because I’ve worked with these tools, like thankfully, I don’t have to do it now. But I would argue that you know, the argument is out there generally accepted that the product of these tech companies are the markets, you know, individuals like, so that’s that. Their customers, in fact, are you and I, the marketers. And they don’t care about us at all. You know, they don’t, you know, their services, like somebody decides to change something at Facebook, it’s changed globally, or at Google, it’s changed globally. There’s no feedback. There’s no anything else. So if, because I’m a little bit of a conspiracy theorist, I do enjoy conspiracy theories. But if I think about this conspiratorially, what I think is that these businesses have kind of helped themselves to huge swathes of marketing budgets. And it’s interesting what you say about advertising having gone away, because I think it did go away. But now it’s come full circle, and it’s back. It’s just that the businesses that are taking their advertising budget are Facebook, Google, Twitter, if you’re, you know, these types of businesses, Amazon. So I don’t 100% agree with you that they are looking after their market. When, you know, you saw that Facebook came out and was valued as a trillion-dollar company. I was thinking about that.

And then advertising perspective. I don’t know, obviously, being a trillion-dollar company doesn’t mean that they’ve taken a trillion dollars in sales. But whatever they have taken in sales, 25 years ago an advertising agency would have been due 10 or 15% of that. So Facebook should have made millionaires out of all of us advertising guys as well. But very conveniently, they didn’t, you know, so this is the way my mind thinks when I’m not actually talking to people. So I think it’s interesting what you’re saying, it’s 100% correct. It’s about being found like there is no more efficient way to make sales than to be picking up the phone and saying to people, can I help you with this thing? Certainly anyone who is prospecting, I think of it as marketing and canvassing now, like, if you’re relying on your salespeople to do your marketing, all they can do is canvassing, and it’s grossly inefficient, and it’s likely to fail. And it almost doesn’t matter what industry you’re in. That is the case now.

So I would argue that Facebook, Google, these people, they don’t particularly know about their customers, who are the people who are spending the marketing budgets with them. And they don’t particularly care about them, because they’ve got the market. And I’d say it’s the same with the restaurant in Cologne. They’re not saying we’re going to be rude to you because, you know, its good marketing. No one ever sat down and said, let’s be rude to everyone. But what they’re saying is, our product is so good, that we don’t have to pander to you in any way, shape, or form. And maybe this is what Google and Facebook are doing also, we don’t have to pander to you in any way, shape, or form. You are going to come not because you like to enjoy people being rude to you. But because you’re going to really enjoy the product. And it doesn’t matter how we package it. It’s that good. You’re going to enjoy it. What do you think?

Barnaby Wynter 1:08:03

Yeah, Okay, so I still think we need to be careful not to use the restaurant in Cologne as a strategic driver? It’s a great tactic. And, yes, there’s a way of making a product more desirable, by making it more difficult to get, you know, there’s a place down the road from where I am, it sells Morgans. I think the waiting list is two years, right? So people go in there, and they wait two years for Morgan. And I’m sure that’s true for many other things. I’ve spoke to the guy, they said, we’ve got orders for the next five years, he said, because there’s a two-year waiting list, you know, he said, we even run a market for people selling their Morgan before they’ve ever owned it, because they’ve been waiting two years, they’ve got to 12 months, they’re paying for it. And then they don’t want it in the end, and they sell it on for more than they paid for it.

So there’s also things going on that, so I get the tactic of making things more desirable by making them more difficult or more awkward. But the psychology behind that, the psychographic behind that is the people who buy into that, buy into that. And so, therefore, they’re more sticky, they’re more likely to go for that. The reality is, that restaurant will do just as well, by people being nice, yeah, they in fact, they might be busier. And in fact, one of the ways of being the rude might mean that they can cope with the business that are out there always full, and therefore they can carry on. But actually, if they were nice, they might have people queuing around the door, and they never disappoint lots of people. And then suddenly the brand reputation is I wouldn’t go there because it’s always too busy and you can never get in, right? Because they’re nice, right?

So I don’t think if the product’s that great, actually being nice or not nice is going to make any difference to that. I think it’s just part of the tactic. And I like it and it’s fun and you know, all that sort of thing and is a great reputation to have. But if you know, if they were to open the chain of the restaurants with the same products, they might need to be nice in other places because they might not get away with that. So I think that’s a tactic, I think, I still would suggest that, so let’s look at Facebook, and indeed Google really struggled to begin with, because they were free-to-use services. Yeah. And what they’ve had to do is their business model, their valuation of a trillion has got nothing to with turnover. It’s not related to that, we’re talking about valuation there. What they are selling, is confidence, confidence in the relationship with them as a business that they’re going to carry on. And they’re going to make money. Because, of course, what they’ve had to do is they’ve had to really, really reverse their whole free to use, everybody can sign up to Facebook and everything. Because what they did was they sold the connectivity between lots and lots of different people. Having done that, now they can manipulate that community, right?

And what will happen is, it wouldn’t surprise me if one day Facebook suddenly disappears overnight, like Myspace, all these places, because what happens is, society goes, actually, we don’t like using Facebook, because we don’t, you know, Google, the chairman of Google stood up, you know, 10 years ago and said one day, we will know everything about everybody on the planet. And immediately. And I think it’s still true that Yahoo in America is as popular as Google in America, I think Google’s number one elsewhere in the world. But I think in America, I still think they’ve got a bit of a battle going on for, for leadership. I don’t know if that’s true. But it’s certainly true a few years ago that everybody switched to Yahoo because they didn’t like what the chairman of Google had said about owning it, all that information. They’re also running algorithms on everything, they’re changing everything they’re trying to find, refine things, you know, it’s you know, and YouTube are doing the same. YouTube, every time you get your new terms and conditions appear in your inbox for your membership of YouTube or whenever, it’s worth reading them because it’s scary what they’re doing.

So for example, on YouTube, now, they change the terms and conditions, they now own your film, when you post it. So before it used to belong to you, now it belongs to YouTube. And that effectively means that YouTube now have overall rights for your film, whatever you put up on YouTube. And they’ve just snuck that in, nobody’s really notice. And actually, when you start thinking about that conception, you think, Wow, that’s amazing. And the reason why they’ve done it is so that they can put an ad on it. Because they own your film, they can then run an ad on it. So what they do is they monitor it to see to get lots of views. And then suddenly, you’ll find that to view your own ad, you’ve got to click through an ad, you’ve got three seconds skip or a five-second skip, or you have to watch the ad in completion because they now own your film, they’re using it as a medium, and that they changed those terms and conditions about three months ago. And it’s gone through unnoticed. But they’re in business, they’re providing a medium, it’s free to upload your films, you know, as they always say, if it doesn’t cost you anything to join something, you’re the product. Yeah. And that’s exactly what they’re doing. And I think people know that they’re the product, they’re signing on something free, they know that. And they’re quite forgiving of it. I talked to my children and they go Yeah, that’s alright. I don’t mind, I don’t really care. They can have whatever they want about me, you know, it’s all out there anyway, so they can have whatever they want. So if they want to use my, my profile, and my thing to build their business, I’m really relaxed about it.

So but all these are tactics, business, strategies, that don’t really have any bearing on brand, in the sense that the risk in their businesses, some suddenly there’s a huge swathe of one thing happens that Facebook are using it to start wars or cause poverty or something like that, they only need some conspiracy theory to gather enough momentum and they’re suddenly out of court, like we see in politics where you know, suddenly somebody in one of the parties does something crazy right at a critical point. And that party’s finished, you know, it’s not going to win the next election. And I think these businesses run the risk of that. They’re so big. They’re also, they’re doing what I said earlier, they have understood that the moment they become commodity, they buy something that isn’t commodity, so you look at what Google owns or what their holding company owns. It’s astonishing what they are hundreds and hundreds of companies. Amazon own hundreds and has absolutely nothing to do with the Amazon that you and I think, as Amazon, and when you start to look at the taxonomy of those businesses, you think, Oh my goodness, because they know that any time any part of that mix can catch a cold and be gone overnight, because they live that way. But then they’ve got all these other businesses, they can just fire up and going. That’s the scary bit is the fact that there’s probably someone who’s done a chart, which says there’s only eight companies that own all of the companies in the world. Of course not you’re not me, we’re still out here flailing around doing our own thing.

Martin Henley 1:15:38

Yeah, I mean, I’m with you, 100%. And Facebook, I think right now is in trouble. I don’t know if you’re up to date with what’s going on between Facebook and Apple. But I’ve seen like, obviously, this isn’t I mean, I have seen it in terms of the campaigns that I run over the last four or five years people are much less interested in Facebook, you know, they just are like, I’m not interested in it anymore. I don’t know. You know, I’ll message somebody on Facebook, if that’s the only way I’m in touch with them, it will be weeks before I get a response. And they’ll say I’m sorry. But they’ve got Instagram, potentially. But now, I think Facebook is really but I saw something yesterday saying they’ll go to the next level. But basically, Apple now are denying them the cookies, the knowledge of the market, they’re using them through that process. So I think Facebook could become a MySpace really, really quickly, I think has gone away. And that could happen kind of any time and I don’t think many people would miss it if that were to happen. That’s what’s interesting about that. The thing that you were saying before about when you were looking for your Egypt holiday, and you went to Google and you looked at the natural rankings, the organic rankings. That is a failure of Google, you know, they have optimized that ski page over the Egypt page, correct. That’s one thing. What I see mostly is people paying for those clicks. So you will see a PPC. So you will search for Egypt holidays, they’ll be ranked at the top. And the marketing person who put that together will have absolute control where they put you in their website. Yeah. And they will take you still to a ski holidays.

Barnaby Wynter 1:17:22

Yeah. It will take you to the homepage. Yeah, yeah. Because they’re still in broadcast mindset, we need to build our business, our messaging our presence in the market via what we consider to be the most important thing about us as a brand, rather than you as a buyer. And so instead of, instead of taking me to the page and say, look, Egypt, we can do your whole holiday in Egypt. But actually, if you’re thinking about going away this time, the snow is never been better. If you like skiing, you should look out, check out our skiing, and you go actually, that’s a good point. Yeah, maybe we should go skiing rather than go to Egypt. Yeah, you can do it in a much, much more buyer-centric way than forcing me through your way of doing things, do it in my way. And that’s why I keep saying it’s all about, you know, getting found making it easy to buy and then make the experience amazing. That’s the core strategy. And there’s lots of ways of helping people find you really easily. And that’s where I think strategically, businesses should be spending their time creating a brand presence, not a tactical thing. Actually, there’s an overriding structure there being helpful and insightful and helping people make sense of their buying decision. If your presence in the market saying, look, you know, we live and breathe this particular thing that we sell. And if you’re thinking of buying this kind of thing, this is what you should consider, this is what you might want to consider. And that may end up being that you don’t buy from us you buy from somebody else, but here’s how you should buy. And then people go that’s really, really helpful, how do I buy from you and you go, easy peasy is, you know, this is the way you do it. And then when they buy from me, that’s the strategy right now for all businesses.

My problem is that I go into to the board meetings, and the majority of the conversation is about how they do things better for themselves, how they cut costs, how they make the systems work, how they manage the flux of the resources that they’ve got, and they hardly ever do they mention the buyers. And you go, okay, so they look at me and go, what do you think? Well, I mean, I go great in the last 45 minutes being really interesting. But you haven’t mentioned the buyers once. It all sounds irrelevant to me. They go, they just look at me, and the bright minds say of course that’s why we’re here. What would you do you know, and that’s what it’s about right now. And that’s what a brand is. It’s commercialised relationships.  Got next to nothing to do with the product, next to nothing to do with the service. Clearly, you’ve got to have that and it’s got to be okay. And it’s got to be, you know, affordable by your market all of those things, of course. But what people buying is your style, your way of doing things, your how you fit in and dovetail into the kind of life they want to lead.

Martin Henley 1:20:28

Yes. Okay, good. And I agree with you 100% when I’m teaching digital marketing, I tell them, this should be like slipping on ice or falling through a trap door for your clients, yes, or your customers, you know, you should just move all resistance. So I would say, and part of the problem with marketing, or even being a business owner that I’ve always experienced is it becomes egotistical. It becomes about them as the business owner and what they want and what they want to see and what they want to do. And really, really effective marketing is just about serving the market. And somebody I used to work with as a sales trainer, he said that the word sales, is a derivative of the word Selya in Norse in ancient Norse which means to serve. And I love the idea of that. The only issue I’ve got with what you’re saying is I 100% want to believe it. But I still think people are buying junk and selling junk. And that’s really the only question mark that I have about.,

Barnaby Wynter 1:21:45

Listen, you know, I would say probably 90% of businesses is still selling old school. So all I’m saying is that listen, if you’re watching this, right, if you’re partaking of this particular session, you’re already enlightened to the idea that there is a different way of doing things, right. So our responsibility, your and my responsibility is to enable those people to just think there’s another way a different way and start to look outside the old school way. And I think that’s the function of sessions like this. And I willingly do them with anybody at any time. Because you know, I’m in a privileged position of having spent over 30 years, putting brands into marketplace, how it’s changed how its work, if you want to be a brand that’s sustainable, that has its premise in the right place that understands its market understands its buyer community, you have to adopt this way. But if you don’t care about that, if you just think I’m in this for an exit plan, or quick win, or I’m going to make as much money out of this product, and I’m going to do it for five or 10 years, and that will be enough, listen, then you can follow the old school ways. All I’m saying is that buyers, right now, they’re getting smarter, they’re getting more educated and more sophisticated. They will assume your advances and I mean, we receive 18,000 marketing messages every single day. Right? I’m sure we haven’t got time. But if I asked you to list out the 18,000 that you saw yesterday, what would you say? 4000 of them were entirely new ones. Yeah, that you’ve not seen?

Martin Henley 1:23:32

I’ve got no idea.

Barnaby Wynter 1:23:33

No idea. Correct. And actually, if I asked you to do 100 of the 18,000, you’d struggle, right? The reality is that the human way of life in the developed West, I know is appreciated different in the east. And you know I’ve done working in the Middle East and stuff like that, it’s very different there. But right here in the West, you know, people just delete all of that stuff. They just can’t. So we know that we’re being bombarded by every single physical surface with a marketing message, everything’s got a logo on it, everything’s got bit design on it, everything’s like that. And that’s where they get the 18,000 from. And the reality is that, we just delete it, or we just ignore it until we are ready to buy and then we go Actually, I’ve got a problem. Right? Okay. It’s the old you know, I’ll buy a red car. And then I think because I don’t think anyone’s got a red card and I drive out and I see 30 red cars, your brain suddenly orientates towards what you’re looking for. At that point, you enter into the knowledge economy, the digital economy, and you go, Okay, I’m looking for this. I’m looking at it and Amazon pops up or Google pops up, whatever. Yeah, that’s what I’m looking for. And they go, people who bought that bought this and they go, that’s quite interesting. And actually, what you end up doing is buying from the organisation that seems to service your needs, your problem. And, actually, they provide a solution and it’s really easy to buy from them. They’re the ones that are winning out and I’m afraid if you are genuinely committed to adding marketing into your mix, and believing and becoming marketing lead.

These are the strategies you got to pursue. I’m of the opinion, you don’t need a Salesforce at all anymore. I think what you need is you need an account management force, which is when people arrive at your doors, you have a team of people that effectively account handle the means of the relationship. And I don’t think you need salespeople at all anymore. That doesn’t mean, there’s plenty of room for salespeople as a playable organisation. But I’m working with an organisation now and they’ve invested most in their sales department. And we say how’s it going? And they’re going, we can’t cope with the leads that you’re bringing us and I go Okay, so what selling are you doing? And they go well, and you can see the head of sales, who’s great, who’s really good, is not doing what she is really good at which is hitting the phones and persuading people who’ve never heard of them to do work with them. She doesn’t need to because the marketing and all the social media and all the things that we’re doing, all the insightful making sense stuff that we think is bringing enough things that the phone just rings and the leads come through the CRM and they’re handling all of that, and she’s hitting her numbers.

So, you know, do you need a Salesforce? I don’t think you do. I think you need an account handling department and nurturing department I think is what we used early. And, we just need to get found, if you put in place a strategy to get found and people will find you and when they find you go, really pleased to found us. How do we make this an amazing experience for you? And I think that’s the way it is now. And it’s the way it is now in any business. I defy anyone to persuade me that otherwise, you know, I was working with a roaming company that, you know, clears calls between telecom operators across the globe. Even they turn around and wait. Okay, actually, we’ve got people calling us to say, how can we do that clearing? You know, there’s enough business for everyone. I can assure you.

Martin Henley 1:27:02

Absolutely. And I’m not going to try and dissuade you because I 100% agree with what you’re saying. And I have absolutely loved this conversation. I hope I haven’t been too challenging. But yeah, it’s really interesting. And it’s because you’ve always been brand. And for a long time, I wasn’t brand. You know, I think that’s where the difference is. And I think you’re absolutely right. I think this has been the case for a long time, as you said, you’ve got to have some kind of relationship with your customers. We all have brand relationships, you know, this is what I do. This is my shtick when I teach brand now, I tell them when I buy sunglasses is this brand, if I buy pants and socks is this brand, if I buy shirts, it’s this brand, if I buy a barbecue, it’s this brand, if I buy a mountain bike, it’s this brand. My cameras, you know, we all have these relationships, and this is what the actual brands understand and why they invest so much money and time and energy in it is because they know, not to not to upset you again, they know that they can invest in to some degree, owning this customer. So when they are thinking about buying something that they offer, it’s them that they think of first and it’s them that they go to.

Barnaby Wynter 1:28:19

Yeah, and I really don’t want to disagree with that at all. Martin, I think you should invest in owning the relationship with the people that buy from you. But we in my business, I don’t use the word, the word that you’re using very often, if at all, we call that the RC-word, we also have an F-word as well. But that’s a different conversation. But we never refer to buyers as customers. Because in neuroscience terms, what that does is it moves your brain to I’m already in a relationship with these people. And therefore you become lazy, and you’d become much more self-centered and all that sort of thing. So I teach organisations to never use the word customer in their business. When I say we call it a C-word, I’m not allowed to use the word in my own business. So what do we call them instead? So all of the focus is always about prospects. And then so actually, we only ever use the word prospect. So because the moment you use the word prospect you go, okay, that I need to work harder, put more energy into the relationship find nicer ways of attracting them and engaging them and nurturing them. And all the things that we talked about them when they find us. And then four or five years ago, we went through a very intellectual process to say, Okay, if you can’t use the C-word, and there are many C-words clients, consumers, customers, users, or they’re all the equivalent to the C-word because what your brain does, it goes Yeah, I’m already in a relationship with these people.

So therefore I can miss things out and not be very nice to them and treat them as commodity and just, you know, part of the business. So we then spent a long time trying to find a phrase and the phrase we use is paying prospects. And actually, so we talk about the people who buy from us as paying prospects. Now what that does in an organisation, it fundamentally shifts culturally, the relationship to being about looking after the people because they’re still prospects. And actually, the logic train on that was they were prospects before they’re still prospects after, actually, when they become your customer, client consumer. They’re all of your competitors’ prospects. So what’s happening is the competition are nibbling at them with prospect approaches, engagement strategies, and eventually, and I can’t tell you how many businesses are going okay, what’s your attrition rate? It’s this? What happened when they went? I don’t know. They just went, well, you must have known they were going to go, No, we didn’t know they were going to go and they just rang up. So we’re not doing it. Did you ask them where they were going? Well, no, we didn’t, they you go Okay. And then the ones that do they go, well they’ve gone to our competitor, right? Okay, at what point did the relationship break down to a point where you thought, actually erase it with this guy, it’s not very strong, this bar is not very strong, and they must be talking to the competition. And that’s because you forgot to treat them like a prospect all of the time. So we talk about prospects and then after purchase paying prospects.

And so in other words, the culture, the design is all marketing now, it’s always about ringing people on saying How’s it going, we’ve got this extra thing that we found out about the product about service, we thought we’d let you know. And actually what happens is the people who pursue the getting found strategy are using insight and making sense. If you discover something that will help the market makes sense. Give it to the people who buy from you right now first, treat them as prospects paying prospects, ring them outside, we’ve got this amazing thing, we’re going to run this campaign about this new, new way of using our product or a new dimension to our service. And we’re giving it to you first and what they just go is Thanks. Thanks for thinking of us. Thanks for looking after me. Thanks for enhancing my use of your product. So and that only happens when you treat the people who buy from this process. So we adopted the C-word strategy, so we don’t use it at all in anything. And the F word is something different that’s related to sales funnels, and they have swore I’ll pay money later. Because obviously, we use a bucket to keep people and, we eschew entirely the concept of the F word. So we have an F word and a C-word. So just for fun,

Martin Henley 1:32:35

Good. Okay, good, you’re gonna have to stop saying such interesting things Barnaby because we’re already an hour and a half in.

Barnaby Wynter 1:32:41

I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I didn’t realize.

Martin Henley 1:32:44

I’d always called them customers. Because people are in the habit of progressing this thing, like prematurely. So for example, I remember somebody was buying some data from us once and that was fine. They find out and said, Can we have some data? And we’re like we can, and then we source the data? And then you know, and then they find out and they say, when are we getting these leads? It’s like, at what point did they stop becoming leads and start becoming data, and they do the same thing with like, a lead becoming a customer. So that’s really interesting and useful. And I’m with you 100% on the sales funnel thing. And the other thing is, like, what do they call it? They call it like a sales process. Like you have to go through our sales process. Yeah, and I’ve just said, like, everyone I’ve ever trained in selling, is actually find out what their buying process is and just do that, you know, I mean, you will.

Barnaby Wynter 1:33:35

Yeah. The reality is that much of what you’ve said, aligns with what I’m saying, it’s just a simple change of psychology. And I think, you know, a phrase like find out what their buying process is exactly about getting found, and then making it easy for them to buy from you. And that’s about finding out what their process of buying is but the focal point of that is that they are the hero of that journey, not your systems and processes, you know. And now the challenge for people and I get this is scalability because of course then every single relationship is bespoke. And therefore people say well, we got to put them through our fixed CRM blah blah into accounts, you know, that sort of thing. Okay, you’re right. But that is the process, the system is you put in place marketing thinking, brand thinking, relationships stuff, so what you do is you build the system so you just say how would you like to buy from us and actually, do you want to swipe card, you want to pay online, you want to pay on account, you want to do you know, put it all in there so they can do it the way they want to do it and be ready for that. And that just needs a little bit more work a little bit more effort, and then people love you for it. They love you for it and they go I wouldn’t go anywhere else.

Even though there’s cheaper, possibly a better quality product, I just wouldn’t go anywhere else. Because you always greet me as Mr. Wynter at the start at the top of the show, you know, you greet Miss, Mrs. That’s your style. That’s what you do. And that what you’re doing is giving me permission to say I prefer if you didn’t call me Mr. Wynter, thank you for doing that. That’s how, I guess the formality of it. Now, can we be Barnaby, Martin, and then suddenly the relationship is stronger because I know why you’re doing it because it makes the relationship stronger. Because you’re gaining permission to be more personal, I get all that, I think you’re probably doing all the things. It’s just about overlaying the right idea that brand is every experience, that affects the relationship between the product or service and the buyer. That’s what a brand is today, it’s not an outbound thing. It’s about really sitting down with a prospect and saying, what kind of relationship would you want from us? Okay, we’ll build the relationship that way. And then, after they bought from you, treat them as a paying prospect, so you maintain that relationship at all times, keep enhancing it, keep nurturing it, and they’ll stay with you for a long time.

Martin Henley 1:36:06

And that is the mission. That is how you be in business profitably.

Barnaby Wynter 1:36:10

Correct.

Martin Henley 1:36:11

I 100% agree with you. The last thing I’m going to slightly push back on, is you’re calling this marketing thinking. And I don’t think it is universal marketing thinking or anywhere near like, this is for me, 100% true and right. And this is the way it should be. But I don’t think marketing is thinking like there are no

Barnaby Wynter 1:36:10

I agree. I agree. And listen, I’m making a very good business, out of the few people that go actually, that really resonates with what we’re struggling with at the moment. And we can’t quite nail it. Because when we go into the marketing industry, don’t forget the whole marketing industry, it’s revenue model is broadcast thinking.

Martin Henley 1:36:52

Yes.

Barnaby Wynter 1:36:53

It has not yet adapted to this thinking and it hates the idea of people like me going okay, so it’s not about broadcast, no. It’s all about narrowcast is all about niche is all about getting people to find you. There are cheap, simple ways of doing that. You don’t need to spend millions of pounds on fancy ads, and blasting the marketplace, you just don’t need to do that anymore. Because people are waking up and wanting you, what you do have to do is when they start to look for you, you’ve got to get found, you’ve got to be where they are. But they still need to understand the target market the same way. But now what you do is you track where they go and you get present in there and you help them be who they want to be at every step of the way. And eventually, it’s a venus flytrap they can’t avoid coming into you, the nectar is there at the bottom of the Venus flytrap they come and then you just bring them in. And eventually, the relationship is so strong that it’s much harder to break. And that sort of brand is a really strong relationship.

As you described your narrative, you can describe your whole life narrative for the brands that you’ve got around you because they’ve fit with your image dimensions, they’ve worked, they call that whatever you want, you know, and they’re reliable, and they’re affordable, and all that sort of thing. And actually, you can lead the life you want to lead as an individual, as Martin Henley, using these brands. And then you can play around with others and fiddle around and then another, you find another one that’s really good and you lock that in. And over time you get a whole portfolio going I only use this and only use that, because they’ve met the relationship criteria that you’ve set. Not not the one they’ve set.

Martin Henley 1:38:34

Brilliant. So it turns out Robert Craven was right. This has been excellent conversation.

Barnaby Wynter 1:38:40

He is a very fine, man. To be fair, he’s right about a lot of things.

Martin Henley 1:38:45

Excellent. And you are right about a lot of things also. Barnaby, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time today, man. I have thoroughly enjoyed the meeting.

Barnaby Wynter 1:38:53

Yeah. Me too. You’re welcome. I really enjoyed it. Great, great, great start to the week.

Martin Henley 1:38:58

Yeah, and we agree and it’s just challenging for me because I have to say things I don’t quite agree with to my challenging, interesting conversation, you know, but I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this. You know, there’s a movement happening here, and maybe we’ll get them all to understand in the end, and we’ll live in a better world.

Barnaby Wynter 1:39:13

I think so. Yeah, I think, listen, actually, the better world is you’re always feel like you’re moving. It’s the bad world is where you feel static. And that’s, that’s a bad world. Whereas movement, actually, as long as you’re moving, I think you’re alive. So it’s all cool.

Martin Henley 1:39:29

Excellent. Thank you so much for your time, man.

Barnaby Wynter 1:39:31

It’s been a real pleasure.

Martin Henley 1:39:32

I’d like to have another one of these in the future. We’ve done an hour and 39 minutes. So you are, this is the longest I’ve done by any measure, then this must be interesting. Okay, so let’s draw a line man, thank you so much for your time. I will catch up with you again soon.

Barnaby Wynter 1:39:49

Yeah, look forward to that. Thanks so much, Martin.

Martin Henley 1:39:55

Brilliant. I have really thought.

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